When was Voyager at its best?

[TheMasterOfOrion]

I liked the last Season, I think the series was also helped by re-introduction of charcters like Deanna Troi and Barclay
Janeway's showdown with the Borg in endgame was a great way to end the series

 

[Equinox]

jon1701 said:
^ Yeah, its pretty good.

Never understood why Seska died though.

She was never a good villain. I mean, she really only disliked Chakotay because he wouldn't be with her and disliked the Starfleet people because 1) She was Cardassian - they all hate Starfleet, big surprise and 2) They weren't Maquis (neither was she, but whatever).

Point is, the Kazon(poor man's Klingon threat) plot was going nowhere and Seska was the last part of that story. With her gone, the shows could be about NEW Delta Quadrant stuff.

 

[Saxman1]

Equinox said:

jon1701 said:
^ Yeah, its pretty good.

Never understood why Seska died though.

She was never a good villain. I mean, she really only disliked Chakotay because he wouldn't be with her and disliked the Starfleet people because 1) She was Cardassian - they all hate Starfleet, big surprise and 2) They weren't Maquis (neither was she, but whatever).

Point is, the Kazon(poor man's Klingon threat) plot was going nowhere and Seska was the last part of that story. With her gone, the shows could be about NEW Delta Quadrant stuff.

I agree 100%. There is great scenery chewing of an almost Shakespherian nature (John Kolicos as Kor from TOS & DS9, The Shat) and there's ANNOYING chewing. Seska is of the annoying variety. Jeez, the actress is even a pain in the DS9 two-parter where she plays the Romulan observer loaning the Defiant the cloaking device. Even then she's popping her eyes out and OVER-STATING-EVERY-SINGLE-LINE!

 

[payndz201]

Seasons 4 and 5 had the highest concentration of good episodes - though there were some horrible misfires as well, which is one reason why I can't imagine ever buying a Voyager DVD boxset. The ratio of crap to good in each season is far too high.

That said, I bought TNG season 7 to which the same applies...

 

[SusanC]

There are a lot of votes for Season 4, which was a great season. But if you're going to start there, you should rent Season 3 in order to get Scorpion 1 , which with Scorpion 2 at the beg of Season 4 is always on the Best of Voyager lists (along with Year of Hell and Timeless). Scorpion sets up Seven of Nine and the Borg arc which continues sporadically throughout 4-7.

If you rent 3 to see Scorpion, also check out Flashback (which goes back in time to when Tuvok was on Sulu's ship) and a fun 2 parter, Future's End (a young Sarah Silverman is in this)

Serious episodes from 3 are Chute and Remember. Funny episodes are False Profits (Ferengi in the Delta Quadrant) and Q and the Grey (Q and Janeway). I hated Q and Grey when I first saw it, but now think it's fun.

Even if you watch nothing else from Season 3, Scorpion 1 is required (especially since Season 4 starts with Scorpion 2). One of the best cliff hangers in Star Trek.

 

[steveman]

You know, re-watching the early seasons of Voyager on Spike these last two to three months, I must say that my overall feelings toward them have increased by a pretty wide margin...

Really, I think something we can all agree on (and something that the producers themselves have admitted at one point or another, too) is that Voyager delved into TNG-type storytelling throughout its run far too often. However, from what I've seen in seasons 1 and 2, the show seemed to be on its own unique course. Sure, the Kazon never really worked out they way the writers probably had hoped they would... but still, from Seska's betrayal, to the collaborations between Michael Jonas and the Kazon, to Chakotay's own personal issues with Seska, these first two seasons gave us some original and genuinely interesting storylines -- ones that, perhaps most importantly of all, were not wrapped up in a single episode.

Seeing these seasons again makes me think that while the quality of Voyager's episodes may have most consistent during Seasons 4 and 5, Voyager was healthiest as a show in those early years. To put it simply, the show was fun to watch because of all the "stumbling" around -- the troubles intigrating the two crews, learning how to deal with hostile Delta Quadrant species such as the fractured Kazon and the genuinely creepy Vidiians, the fleshing out of certain relationships -- such as the ones involving Chakotay with B'Elanna, Seska, and, ultimately, Janeway, and the general eclectic feel of a crew that was lost and far from home, consisting of several Starfleet veterans, newbies, renegades, a holographic chief medical officer, and a couple of Delta Quadrant tag-alongs too.

It was these things that made Voyager unique. They made the show special, much in the same way that Kirk-Spock-McCoy did to TOS, the unbridled exploration and close-knit crew did to TNG, the darkness and grittiness did to DS9, and the legacy of Starfleet's early years did to ENT. The trouble though is that once we got past those early years we lost a lot of the aforemenioned. The show got to be formulaic, predictable, and content with mediocrity. And watching the later seasons, it's pretty hard denying this.

Ultimately, while those early seasons were certainly perfect, they did give us hope that Voyager was going to turn out to be a unique and relevant chapter of the Star Trek saga. Of course, I think Voyager fell short of about everyone's expectations -- fans and showrunners alike -- but at one point it did show promise, and that point was in those first few seasons.

And you know, that's a heck of lot more than I can say for how the majority of the series turned out.

 

[Equinox]

^^^ I loved TNG so I had no problem w/ Voyager being a "rehash" of it. If one must copy something, let it be something great!

Besides, I think Voyager was better more consistently and overall character and storywise than any Trek, including the forum fanboy fave DS9.

 

[steveman]

Equinox said:
^^^ I loved TNG so I had no problem w/ Voyager being a "rehash" of it. If one must copy something, let it be something great!

Besides, I think Voyager was better more consistently and overall character and storywise than any Trek, including the forum fanboy fave DS9.

TNG did it first. And TNG did it better.

And considering its overall premise, Voyager could've been so much more than just a "re-hash" of a show that came before it, no?

 

[Equinox]

TNG did it first. And TNG did it better.

Actually TOS did it "first".

And remember, just because you do something first doesn't mean its the best!


Anyways...


TNG was absolutely awful, borderline-unwatchable for the first 2 1/2 seasons. Seasons 4-6 were TNG's best but the show still seemed pretty dated looking (like a late 80s/early 90s show) and there wasn't really a series story linking any of the episodes together...what I mean is that in DS9 you had the "Wormhole/Dominion" plot and in Voyager you had "Getting Home"...TNG just sorta floundered back and forth resulting into some great eps but a lot of forgettable ones as well.

What Voyager did was make Trek FEEL as if it was in the future (like it or not, technobabble was more noticeable in dialogue and created a better atmosphere in VOY). The characters were also more relateable and inviting (In TNG, Worf always seemed out-of-place, much like on DS9...you also had the useless Troi going from telepathic to therapist during the series, Crusher doing nothing 99.9% of the time, Wesley wrecking a lot of early eps, etc.) and changed gradually over the show's run (in DS9, every character has almost this night and day difference in the span of 7 seasons...not entirely unbelievable but highly unlikely, even in "a time of war").

Voyager also created a new universe for Trek by answering questions about species we know (Borg) and introducing new ones (Species 8472).

Was every Voyager ep perfect? No. But when you look at the OVERALL picture and take into account all of the storylines, plot threads that slowly connected together (Tom/B'elanna, Neelix/Tuvok, Janeway/Seven, Doctor/Seven, etc.) you'll find yourself MORE satisfied with the characters than the storyline in any given episode.

That's why DS9 will never be my favorite Trek. Because although the Dominion War was a cool story, I really didn't like a bunch of characters. From Kai Winn to Kira to Jadzia to Worf (why was he there again!?!) to even Odo (*yawn*)...I didn't care what happened to a lot of the major characters.

And I think this makes sense - when you think of TOS, you think Kirk, Spock, McCoy. You don't think "Oh, the episode with the hippies!" Or, "The episode with the Nazis!" Those characters MADE Trek.

Same with TNG - Picard & Data made the show, and rightfully so.

As for ENT, we'll just not mention it TOO much. Let's just say TNG 2.0 (I'd have rather seen Voyager for FOUR more years if this is what they wanted) in a prequel setting with boring characters/actors AND boring stories doesn't add up to much.

Are VOY's characters more exciting than Kirk, Spock or McCoy's? In my opinion, YES, but I realize on this subject I'm in the minority, so I will say honestly people will forget Janeway long before Kirk. ***HOWEVER***, when you look at production quality, storylines, visuals effects, acting and Trek-universe consistency / Gene's Moral Vision OVERALL, Voyager is far better than any other Trek series. DS9 is second, but not a close one.

 

[steveman]

^

Quite the tirade. I probably shouldn't have said anything at all.

To be completely honest with you, I disagree with about every word of your post -- but, we're Trek fans, and disagreeing is something we do. A lot.

Something that glaringly stood out to me, however, was your giving Voyager un-due credit for its special effects...

Aside from ENT, it was the latest and greatest Trek series in terms of production technologies (i.e. CGI) so why *shouldn't* Voyager have looked the best? We shouldn't take points away from TOS, TNG, and DS9 for simply not looking as good as Voyager. Because, really, how could they? It's rather illogical to fault a show for something it cannot help.

As for the majority of your argument... Yes, Voyager was, on the whole, pretty consistent. However, it was also pretty "safe" too. I'd rather see a show like DS9 push its boundaries and try to do something memorable and worthwhile (and risk failure) than to be content giving us the same good-to-mediocre product week-in and week-out (and stay safe).

Once you consider that, is it really any wonder why Voyager is easy to forget in the grand scheme of things? I don't think so.

Anyways... agree or disagree, I will say this -- the Voyager fans on this board are arguably the most fiercely loyal to their show. While it's something I may not necessarilly agree with, it is something that I respect. So, kudos to you.

 

[Equinox]

^^^

Production Values: By production values, I mean set design, directing, sound quality/use, visual effects (of course), alien technology/species design....TNG LOOKS LIKE THE 80s. It does. It looks like I imagined an 80s starship would look like. Lots of rounded surfaces, light tans/earthy tones. Aliens look humanoid but not too crazy. Sets look cheaply constructed and things like lighting are overlooked the majority of the time because, well, who thinks that can be important?

In DS9 everything went up, up, up, especially set design. DS9 looked dark and brooding, just like the show itself. Lots of browns, dark teals, and "dirty" colors all around to fit in with the grittiness of the atmosphere. Lighting was used more effectively and cinematography moved away from feeling like a TV show and more to a movie-like experience. DS9 looked great, but it looked NOTHING like the previous Treks. Hell, BSG looks just like DS9! What does that say???

In Voyager, starships finally LOOKED like starships. Colors were cooler and more efficient feeling, panel design and trim more streamlined and functional looking, everything looked futuristic ---- NOT like furniture or decorating from the 90s being used in a futuristic setting. Lighting was used very effectively to highlight different sets, especially the bridge in order to raise or lower the dramatic mood. Depending on the lighting, Voyager either felt like a workplace/governement installation or a home/welcoming environment. In TNG, you never got too concerned because it was always so bright and spacious while on DS9 it took all you could muster not to get depressed by your surroundings and down some Romulan Ale. Oh, and as for camera/shot quality, watch episodes like Timeless, especially when everyone is celebrating the launch of the new Transwarp drive. Voyager took directors seriously.

Enterprise looked like it came from the head of Steve Jobs with that aluminum/brushed metal crap everywhere - it just SCREAMED 2001 (the year, not Kubrik's film). The whole ship felt like you were on the inside of a high-end refrigerator. The cinematography was usually pretty good, mainly because widescreen filming tends to make dramatic shows seem more theater-like (and thus, more dramatic).



Concerning CGI effects, all the series got gradually better, so one can't expect a show from the late 80s to compete at teh same level with a show made 15 years later. BUT, as all those 80s puppet-filled films showed you - if you direct and shoot something right - even if it's just a puppet or a model, you can still get fantastic results. (Look at Farscape!)

As for the majority of your argument... Yes, Voyager was, on the whole, pretty consistent. However, it was also pretty "safe" too. I'd rather see a show like DS9 push its boundaries and try to do something memorable and worthwhile (and risk failure) than to be content giving us the same good-to-mediocre product week-in and week-out (and stay safe).

DS9 was good, but it's a one-time thing. If another Trek tried to follow in DS9's footsteps, people would be like, "Oh, it's just copying DS9". That's the problem with BSG right now. It tried to be so different it actually hurt itself beyond repair. Because the writers and creator kept pushing the envelope of people's expectations for a show after a season or so serious cracks started appearing in the form of "Okay, what now? We can't kill someone every episode!" or "What now? We can't constantly make their life anymore hopeless! Things eventually have to get better, right?"

Star Trek fanboys only think DS9 is the best "Trek" because it is the most non-Trek series of them all. Which is funny, if you think about it. If there was another DS9-like Trek show, you'd see a huge drop in DS9 love. People would probably go back to claiming TNG or TOS is the best. DS9 is a nice expirement in trying something different but besides the name and alien species here and there, it could be ANY sci-fi show out there.

Voyager fits most in line with Roddenberry's original vision of a future where humans try to do the right thing whenever possible, even if that means putting their own lives at risk.

DS9 was all about killing Cardassians, fighting the Dominion and Wormhole aliens. Made for great storytelling but like I said, could have been ANY sci-fi series if you changed the names. I especially liked how Sisko goes from being a nice guy in the Pilot to hiring a hitman in "In The Pale Moonlight"...a great ep, no doubt, but if that's what the Federation is like after a couple years of strife in the Alpha Quadrant, I think I'd rather be lost in the Delta.

 

[KeepOnTrekking]

"Scorpion"

 

[Harvey]

I thought Voyager peaked during the fifth season, with the episode "Bliss." Yes, there were some good episodes afterwards (even a few brilliant ones), but there was much more crap as well. I can't even make it through the sixth and seventh seasons without skipping at least a dozen episodes.

The best season is probably the fourth, with the Borg story-line being used (and not overused) to its best, as well as the Year of Hell, and my personal favorite (shocking) arc concerning the Hirogen. I like the last one best because the Hirogen weren't central in all of the six episodes where they are a threat to the Voyager crew (Message in a Bottle/Hunters/Prey/Retrospects/The Killing Game I & II). They were allowed to be built up across these episodes (with varying degree of participation in each) until culminating with The Killing Game (which is a lot of fun). I wish Voyager had allowed more threats to develop like that. Instead, most of them after the Hirogen are introduced and dealt with all in the same episode. A shame-- so much missed potential.

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

Equinox said:
Season 5!

I really liked the fifth but not everyone enjoyed it

Ron Moore on Voyager

"I think the audience intuitively knows when something is true and something is not true. Voyager is not true. If it were true, the ship would not look spic-and-span every week, after all these battles it goes through. How many times has the bridge been destroyed? How many shuttlecrafts have vanished, and another one just comes out of the oven? That kind of BULLSH*TTING the audience I think takes its toll. At some point the audience stops taking it seriously, because they know that this is not really the way this would happen. These people wouldn’t act like this."

 

[An Officer]

I would say the best two-parter by far is Scorpion from season four. What an introduction for the character of Seven! This episode is also my favourite Janeway outing. I wish Janeway could have been this "captainly" throughout, and that we never had to sit through those early years when she just fiddled about with salmon pink negligees all day long.

Enjoy! I would love to be in the position of watching Voyager with fresh new eyes.

 

[Equinox]

TheMasterOfOrion said:
Ron Moore on Voyager

"I think the audience intuitively knows when something is true and something is not true. Voyager is not true. If it were true, the ship would not look spic-and-span every week, after all these battles it goes through. How many times has the bridge been destroyed? How many shuttlecrafts have vanished, and another one just comes out of the oven? That kind of BULLSH*TTING the audience I think takes its toll. At some point the audience stops taking it seriously, because they know that this is not really the way this would happen. These people wouldn’t act like this."

Ron Moore? Gimme a break. Battlesuck Galactica went from the coolest show I've ever seen in Season One to the most worthless excuse for a series by late Season Two. The guy criticizes Voyager for not accurately accounting for every little thing (everyone conveniently forgets that Voyager has a crew of over 100 people that are probably repairing things constantly between eps...that's what starship crews DO...duh...) and once again bring up shuttlecraft (geez, not every shuttle is a clone of Voyager - I'm sure they aren't that difficult to create with replicators and stuff found on alien planets - give'em a break!).

But all the while he's off making a show where someone else is getting killed every other week for no reason, the main bad buys who were supposed to be so smart have no plan at all and people are pointlessly screwing each other left and right like their on the set of All My Children.

Disregard him!

 

[flandry84]

Voyager did itself no favours by ignoring several cast members notably TUVOK and CHAKOTAY.For two action oriented characters they were badly served.Tuvok was an opportunity to make vulcans cool again,whileChakotay should have been the guy to bet on in a klingon dagger fight.

 

[mahler5]

When it was cancelled. You can't polish a turd.

 

[Good Will Riker]

Equinox said:

TheMasterOfOrion said:
Ron Moore on Voyager

"I think the audience intuitively knows when something is true and something is not true. Voyager is not true. If it were true, the ship would not look spic-and-span every week, after all these battles it goes through. How many times has the bridge been destroyed? How many shuttlecrafts have vanished, and another one just comes out of the oven? That kind of BULLSH*TTING the audience I think takes its toll. At some point the audience stops taking it seriously, because they know that this is not really the way this would happen. These people wouldn’t act like this."

Ron Moore? Gimme a break. Battlesuck Galactica went from the coolest show I've ever seen in Season One to the most worthless excuse for a series by late Season Two. The guy criticizes Voyager for not accurately accounting for every little thing (everyone conveniently forgets that Voyager has a crew of over 100 people that are probably repairing things constantly between eps...that's what starship crews DO...duh...) and once again bring up shuttlecraft (geez, not every shuttle is a clone of Voyager - I'm sure they aren't that difficult to create with replicators and stuff found on alien planets - give'em a break!).

But all the while he's off making a show where someone else is getting killed every other week for no reason, the main bad buys who were supposed to be so smart have no plan at all and people are pointlessly screwing each other left and right like their on the set of All My Children.

Disregard him!

Instead of telling good science-fiction stories filled with allegories, allusions, and social commentary like what most of TOS accomplished, Ron Moore inherited the "soap opera" model of storytelling of TNG, where character development was equivalent to someone learning how to dance or dream for the first time.

Please...we no longer need that angst in our science-fiction anymore. This ain't no "Beverly Hills 90201" here.