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When/If Trek Lit reaches 2387

I thought there were 3 distinct "timelines".

1. Novel continuity: Following from the shows, going their own way, nothing to do with the new universe.

2. STO: Some stuff from the novels, leads up to Countdown in particular in the background but largely it's own separate timeline, uniforms, events etc

3. Star Trek '09: Just what we see in the flashbacks from Spock.
 
But the Romulan Star Empire is the single biggest, and arguably most technologically advanced, member-state of the Typhon Pact. Having the RSE's home space shattered and the remainder of the empire fall into anarchy is definitely going to provoke major power shifts within the Pact, as well as without.

Problem is the Empire is not a single world, no matter how powerful.

All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Romulus together again.

There are other worlds in the Romulan Star Empire. Destroying the capital world doesn't destroy the entire civilization. I'm sure not all Unificationists live on Romulus itself. If anything, before it was legalized, the movement probably thrived the most on other worlds that weren't as closely watched by the state.
 
I thought there were 3 distinct "timelines".

1. Novel continuity: Following from the shows, going their own way, nothing to do with the new universe.

2. STO: Some stuff from the novels, leads up to Countdown in particular in the background but largely it's own separate timeline, uniforms, events etc

3. Star Trek '09: Just what we see in the flashbacks from Spock.

Different Trek tie-ins such as the novels, the comics, and STO are free to disregard one another, so that they have distinct continuities, but they're all obligated to stay consistent with onscreen canon, because that's what tie-ins do. So everything that the 2009 film established about the events of 2387 -- the supernova, the destruction of Romulus, the disappearance of Spock and Nero -- must be acknowledged by any and all tie-ins, even if they contradict one another in other respects. So in the list you gave above, "3" would be equally a part of both "1" and "2."
 
I see the destruction of Romulus being Hobus as being akin in its impact to Romulan civilization to--say--the destruction of the Eastern Seaboard in the United States, or the northeast of China, or of the Sao Paulo-Rio de Janeiro corridor in Brazil, or of the Moscow-St. Petersburg corridor in Russia. Most of the country is intact (mainly because it's such a big country), most of the population and economic base even, but the core of the old state including its main economic, political, and cultural centers have been destroyed. The polity that's left lacks its central institutions: the surviving components (military units, planets, other political entities) are left to cope as best they can and to try to reassemble some central government.

But these are not imperial analogies, either. Rome and, later, Ravenna and Constantinople's various sackings and near-destructions did not stop the empire from working. Nor were the Roman and later Eastern Roman Empires a 'centralised' empire, with regional governments, local military structures and bureaucracies. I think that the Romulans (I just realised that terrible corrolation of analogy and fictional race) - if just losing Romulus and its local system(s) - would survive. Different - there might be a St Augustine bemoaning the loss of home - but still carrying on. It would be poor world-building to see an empire fold because of the loss of a capital. If the Romulan Empire is indeed an empire, in more than name only.

:wtf:

They didn't just destroy the White House they took out all of Washington D.C. meaning Congress and anyone who didn't escape before it was destroyed were killed. Not to mention the Vice President being killed when new York was destroyed and the fact that the Joint Chiefs were said to have been killed in the attacks on screen.

My point here is not specific to the film, but the power of the image - the exploding ball of flame signifying the end, or the loss of state buildings through other means - intended to suggest the end of the nation through the loss of the building, that betrays a lack of understanding of the dispersed nature of government.

Anyway, thanks for replying both
 
^A better cinematic analogy might be Return of the Jedi, which implied that the death of Palpatine caused the entire Empire to become instantly liberated (though I'm aware that the Expanded Universe -- not to mention Robot Chicken -- acknowledged that it wouldn't be that simple).
 
^A better cinematic analogy might be Return of the Jedi, which implied that the death of Palpatine caused the entire Empire to become instantly liberated (though I'm aware that the Expanded Universe -- not to mention Robot Chicken -- acknowledged that it wouldn't be that simple).

Thanks Christopher - that is an excellent analogy! Do you think that the idea of 'empire' is perhaps harder for audiences to grasp today because there are no empires, and because 'government' is conflated with a few fixed legislative locations, rather than the more nebulous (and digital) reality?
 
I see the destruction of Romulus being Hobus as being akin in its impact to Romulan civilization to--say--the destruction of the Eastern Seaboard in the United States, or the northeast of China, or of the Sao Paulo-Rio de Janeiro corridor in Brazil, or of the Moscow-St. Petersburg corridor in Russia. Most of the country is intact (mainly because it's such a big country), most of the population and economic base even, but the core of the old state including its main economic, political, and cultural centers have been destroyed. The polity that's left lacks its central institutions: the surviving components (military units, planets, other political entities) are left to cope as best they can and to try to reassemble some central government.

But these are not imperial analogies, either. Rome and, later, Ravenna and Constantinople's various sackings and near-destructions did not stop the empire from working.

I'm not disagreeing with you that Romulan culture and civilization would survive the destruction of the Romulan homesystem. I've said here on the past that the odds are the Romulans, who've been aggressively expanding their presence across space ever since their generation ships arrived in Eisn space, are present in very large numbers in settlements far from Romulus.

The scale of the disruption to the Romulan polity is much greater than that associated with the sackings of Rome and Ravenna and Constantinople. Despite heavy human and material damage, those cities remained functional enough, as did their various hinterlands, and could be restored. What happened with Hobus, which destroyed the Romulan homesystem entirely and who knows what other worlds, would be more comparable to Mongol hordes coming to the Italian peninsula or the Aegean basin and successfully destroying everyone and everything they found. That scale of destruction is something beyond anything that happened to the Roman Empire in any of its phases.

I think that the Romulans (I just realised that terrible corrolation of analogy and fictional race) - if just losing Romulus and its local system(s) - would survive. Different - there might be a St Augustine bemoaning the loss of home - but still carrying on. It would be poor world-building to see an empire fold because of the loss of a capital. If the Romulan Empire is indeed an empire, in more than name only.

Romulan civilization would survive, but it's not obvious that the Romulan Star Empire would survive the destruction of the Romulan homesystem, with its population and wealth and political centrality. (Other Romulan worlds may well also be destroyed by Hobus. If these worlds were near Hobus and Romulus, it's possible that they may have been relatively important first-generation colonies, worlds like Romii. In this case, the damage would be still greater.)
 
Hmm. Star Charts seems to imply that Romulus orbits a star very near Epsilon Phoenicis, an orange giant star (K0III) about 140 light years away from Sol. It's only slightly more massive than Sol (Wolfram Alpha gives it a mass of 1.1 Sols) so it can't go supernova unaided, but maybe someone helped?

STO has the Remans igniting the star through some technobabble hocus pocus (maybe even involving the Red Matter) as the start to their ongoing liberation movement, which is one of the only bits of that game's plot I've found all that compelling.
 
Hmm. Star Charts seems to imply that Romulus orbits a star very near Epsilon Phoenicis, an orange giant star (K0III) about 140 light years away from Sol. It's only slightly more massive than Sol (Wolfram Alpha gives it a mass of 1.1 Sols) so it can't go supernova unaided, but maybe someone helped?

STO has the Remans igniting the star through some technobabble hocus pocus (maybe even involving the Red Matter) as the start to their ongoing liberation movement, which is one of the only bits of that game's plot I've found all that compelling.

Epsilon Phoenicis is identified as Hobus?
 
The great thing about the fact that "Parallels" and other episodes established that multiple quantum timelines exist cpncurrently is that the "destruction of Romulus" future doesn't necessarily have to be the "our universe" future, in much the same way that the "NuTrek" universe's existence doesn't mean that the TOS universe was "wiped out."

So few episodes... So much wiggle room!

THIS! To the Nth power!!!!

The 'Prime' 'verse of nu-Trek needs to be an alternate reality itself. Let the old Trek canon roll on on its own. Romulus can stay, and so can Spock.
 
My 2 cents:
While it is not obligatory I'd like to see a common Lit/Countdown continuity.

Interestingly, there are some clues in recent novels pointing in that direction:
In The Struggle Within Picard ponders resignation and Worf gaining a command of his own. In Plagues of Night Spock returns from a Romulan Empire that is beginning to open itself to new ideas, putting it on a path towards the RSE depicted in Countdown.

La Forge has been demoted to Commander again, also consistent with the comic.
I expect him to retire, too, marry Leah Brahms, design the Jellyfish and return to command the miraculously returned (by virtue of Scott) Challenger post-2387.

Plus, there's still time for Data to return, Worf to move to the KDF and the introduction of the new uniforms. The only issue I see is the conflict of the medical starships Galen.
 
This is a bit off topic - but I was having a look on the Star Trek Online wiki and noticed that the Aenar appear to still exist within the STO universe where in the novel continuity the Aenar have been extinct since before the TNG era.

I must admit I know nothing of the STO universe except what was mentioned in the last Star Trek movie and the IDW Countdown comics and that it is set in 2409, but from my understanding they share the same history up until Nemesis in 2379 - so has it ever been established how the Aenar came to still exist in the STO universe.

I am simply interested as I think the Aenar were an interesting species & if they have become 'non-extinct' in the STO universe, I was wondering if there is a chance this may carry over to the current novel continuity.
 
The books and STO don't quite share a history at all. STO borrowed lots from the novels (characters and events), but just about everything from the end of DS9 onwards is a little or a lot different. For example, Ro ends up on DS9 in STO, but later than she does in the novels. Dulmur and Lucsly from the DTI have different first names. And on the major end of the spectrum, the ancient Iconians are a lot different to what the novels gave us.

Although "The Needs of the Many" calls the Destiny/Typhon Pact novels an alternate reality and hints at lots of time travel being the difference between them, that's doesn't really hold up to scrutiny any more than, say, trying to explain away the total visual differences in TOS and TMP.

So, as for the Aenar.... their return may be detailed in ome of the "path to 2409" timeline updates on the STO site, or it may simply be assumed they never went extinct in STO's version of Trek.
 
What KingDaniel said. The novels and STO aren't really parallel timeline branches within a cohesive multiverse -- they're different extrapolations from a fictional franchise done by different licensees with different storytelling goals. The developers of STO drew on bits and pieces of story from other licensees including Pocket and IDW Comics when they found it useful to do so, but also freely contradicted them when it suited their interests.
 
The novels and STO aren't really parallel timeline branches within a cohesive multiverse -- they're different extrapolations from a fictional franchise done by different licensees with different storytelling goals.

No reason why they can't be both.

I mean, sure, it's never come up as an actual plot point, but it can...and even if it doesn't, well, we can still think of things that way.
 
No reason why they can't be both.

I mean, sure, it's never come up as an actual plot point, but it can...and even if it doesn't, well, we can still think of things that way.

Sure, but some people mistakenly assume that the "parallel timelines" thing is official policy and that the creation of the two tie-in lines is based on it, and they must therefore follow the logic of parallel timelines. And that leads them to false expectations such as the one that they must be identical prior to a certain point in time and only different afterward, or the one that since Countdown ties into STO, it therefore can't be part of the novel timeline as well (which it isn't yet, but theoretically could be if Pocket decides to go that way). The point is that the people creating them aren't specifically approaching them as parallel timelines, just different fictional constructs that aren't beholden to each other, and so the real situation is less orderly. If you understand that, then it can save you from having false expectations about the content or interrelationship of the two.
 
I love the Andorians but not an Aenar fan. If they evolved to not use their vision, why do they have eyes, have multicolored and patterned garments, and have their underground cities lit? Meh. Leave them dead.

That said, we know Shran had a daughter with the others in his bondng group being Aenar, so Aenar DNA may be within the general population. We can have telepathic Andorians without having the Aenar.

As for STO, it also has people flying around in NX class ships, an extremely lax uniform code, and people running around starships with pet Mugatos. The game can't be taken TOO seriously.
 
I love the Andorians but not an Aenar fan. If they evolved to not use their vision, why do they have eyes, have multicolored and patterned garments, and have their underground cities lit? Meh. Leave them dead.

That said, we know Shran had a daughter with the others in his bondng group being Aenar, so Aenar DNA may be within the general population. We can have telepathic Andorians without having the Aenar.
I want the red-blooded, religeous, antennae-damage-is-fatal Theskians back!
As for STO, it also has people flying around in NX class ships, an extremely lax uniform code, and people running around starships with pet Mugatos. The game can't be taken TOO seriously.
I wouldn't take the gameplay itself seriously, but the backstory and "The Needs of the Many" novel can fit respectably into Trek lore.
 
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