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When/If Trek Lit reaches 2387

The question of how the UFP is governed is a really interesting one, in my opinion, and Articles of the Federation was a really successful novel in explaining part of it.

I think the idea that each planet has an ambassador to the UFP, with an elected president as head of government to their legislature (Council), makes sense. Democracy can be whatever we construct it to be.

In Germany for example, the upper house is derived from the federal states and its control changes hands as local elections change governments and thus, affect national policy. Each state actually has an "embassy" in Berlin.

In the UFP it seems the executive power of government, that in Germany comes from the lower house which is an elected parliament, is vested in the President - directly elected - who has to work with the Council, who pass laws; and its members are indirectly elected by the governments that come to power in each state.

You therefore have a blended direct and indirect model that represents the wishes of people throughout the UFP, in popularly electing the head of government and having the legislature evolve as nations/planets change government.

Anyway, interesting side discussion.

To the 2387 question, I reckon that Trek authors may have to explain away some of the stuff from Countdown, and even the movie, in the deft manner with which they deal with the oddities contained within canon... Particularly from the TOS era.
 
I've often suggested that the UFP seems more akin to the US pre-Civil-War--sans the slavery, of course.

By that, I mean there was a general idea of state/member sovereignty--i.e., "The United States Are" as opposed to "The United States Is".

At the very least, this would explain, among other things, the idea of a member world conducting trade with a non-member that the Federation itself doesn't trade with, for whatever reason. Also, it could help explain the idea of ambassadors to member worlds....
 
I've often suggested that the UFP seems more akin to the US pre-Civil-War--sans the slavery, of course.

By that, I mean there was a general idea of state/member sovereignty--i.e., "The United States Are" as opposed to "The United States Is".

That's always been the scenario that made the most sense to me as well.
 
Do you think the EU ever *will* be such a state?

It's very unlikely (I'd bet my last ten pounds against it) as the UK won't ever consider itself fully 'European'. We still see ourselves as the country that stood 'alone' against invasion in WWII and have a much bigger political and military presence in the world than our size would justify. We're also an awkward bunch of b*******s.

Some of the rest of Europe might go for it, but I don't think we'd be the only holdouts...

Of course, it's also possible that the European Union could become a sovereign state, but one which only encompasses those states willing to yield their national sovereignty and which expels those unwilling. So maybe we'd see a European Union comprised of, for instance, Germany, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Italy, Portugal, Spain, and Denmark, but not the United Kingdom, Ireland, Finland, Sweden, and Poland.

Or the whole thing could just fall apart. Who knows? But one way or the other, the current situation is unsustainable.

There's also the question of a variable-geometry federalism. There are certain elements of cooperation or federalism that all European Union member-states share in--voters in all EU member-states elect people to the European Parliament, to name only a single example--but certain forms of cooperation are only entered into by some countries. Only 17 of the 27 member-states use the Euro and belong to the Eurosystem, for instance, while Ireland and the United Kingdom are both non-members (and Romania and Bulgaria prospective members) of the Schengen Area allowing for passport-free travel. (Curiously, non-EU Norway and Switzerland are members.)

We know that there are distinctions between Federation members and Federation protectorates. Are there categories of associate UFP membership? Are there Euro or Schengen analogues (intensified, optional cooperation) inside the UFP? Et cetera.
 
As for Spock's unification movement...

It's the Romulan Star Empire. It consists of more than just Romulus and Remus. Romulan culture will still survive on other Romulan worlds. The real question will be, shall the Star Empire survive with a new capital, or will it sunder again? And if Spock's movement succeeds, will the Romulan worlds join the Federation as Federation Member worlds in their own right, or as a common Member? Or will they join the Confederacy of Vulcan, which is itself already a Member?

(I suppose this is a bit like asking if Canada would join the United States as its own state, or with each province becoming its own state, or with the provinces becoming part of New York State, Michigan, Maine, etc.)

Interesting idea.

I've speculated here that of the two dominant branches of the Vulcan species--the people who stayed on their homeworld in the 40 Eridani system and the people who went off to form their splinter culture on Romulus--the Romulan branch may be the more dominant. (The homeworld Vulcans stayed bottled up in their pocket empire surrounded by hostiles; the Romulans, for their part, enthusiastically and aggressively built a vast interstellar empire apparently with a minimum of opposition for more than a millennium.)

A supernova that destroyed the Eisn system, and presumably many of the older colony worlds and protectorates of Romulus, would cut severely into the overall Romulan population. I think, though, that there still be quite plausibly be a significantly larger population of Romulans than of Vulcans, living on worlds spared the Hobus supernova. These would probably be the newer conquests/colonizations, and so probably less developed.

I don't see a significant number of Romulan worlds joining the Confederacy of Vulcan. It's not obvious to me that even friendliness towards Vulcan culture would translate into a desire for annexation into the Vulcan state, or that citizens of the Confederacy of Vulcan would like their state's political centre of gravity to be shifted radically to distant expanses colonized by a splinter culture that was traditionally hostile to the homeworld and has a culture radically different from that of the homeworld. (Think of European coldness towards the idea of further expansion of the EU, and then imagine that future prospects weren't limited to the western Balkans and Turkey but Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, and the rest of the former Soviet bloc.)

I rather see the Romulan successor state(s) opting for affiliation the Federation in its own right. Especially if it's the less-developed fringes of Romulan space which survive, Romulan civilization is going to need help to survive and continue to develop. How close would it be, though? Romulan membership in the UFP would make the UFP's near-peer enemy of longest standing easily one of the most important member-states of the Federation, quite possibly surpassing United Earth and the Confederacy of Vulcan. What sort of integration scheme would be possible? Would the Federation be able to handle this?

Subject species like the Kevratans or Meridians will complicate things. If the RSE's hold over their worlds broke, presumably they would strive for independence and some sort of Federation affiliation to preserve their independence, analogous to the relationships of Drema IV and Bajor after those world's liberations. A close Federation-Romulan alliance, never mind Romulan membership in the Federation, would require radical liberalization of policies towards the Romulan subject species.

Complicating things further, what of the Typhon Pact? What form might Vulcan-Romulan reunification, or reconciliation, take in the context of the affiliations of the two different branches of the Vulcan species with two mutually-hostile blocs, especially since the Vulcans and Romulans are each major players in these blocs? The alternatives that Spock offered--generalized detente, mutual secession to form a new power bloc--remain valid. (Devastating the RSE is going to hurt the Typhon Pact's overall standing, but it might also empower other member-states.)
 
There's also the question of a variable-geometry federalism. There are certain elements of cooperation or federalism that all European Union member-states share in--voters in all EU member-states elect people to the European Parliament, to name only a single example--but certain forms of cooperation are only entered into by some countries. Only 17 of the 27 member-states use the Euro and belong to the Eurosystem, for instance, while Ireland and the United Kingdom are both non-members (and Romania and Bulgaria prospective members) of the Schengen Area allowing for passport-free travel. (Curiously, non-EU Norway and Switzerland are members.)

Well, as I understand it, the Schengen Agreement actually pre-dates the European Union; it was an agreement between sovereign states, independent of what was then called the European Economic Community, though its members were EEC members, too. It was later grandfathered into E.U. law, but it remains for those non-E.U. members a treaty between sovereign states.

But, yeah, the question of "variable-geometry federalism" is an interesting one. The United States can be argued to practice it today--the residents of the District of Columbia get three votes in the Electoral College, but they get no United States Senators and only a non-voting Delegate to the House of Representatives. The territories -- Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and the Northern Mariana Islands -- don't even get to vote in the Electoral College. And for D.C., the Congress must approve and can overrule any Act passed by the Council of the District of Columbia.

We know of at least one form of "variable-geometry federalism" within the UFP -- the Federation Councillors from the five founding Members (Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri) are always automatically placed on the Federation Security Council, no Presidential nomination or ratification from the full Council required. And we also know that it wasn't until circa 2230 that a Federate from a world outside of the five founding Members, Madza Bral of Trill, was elected President. Perhaps in the wake of Andor's secession, that surviving 22nd Century quirk has been abolished and the five founding wolds no longer get that special privilege? I would certainly hope so.

We know that there are distinctions between Federation members and Federation protectorates. Are there categories of associate UFP membership? Are there Euro or Schengen analogues (intensified, optional cooperation) inside the UFP? Et cetera.

Well, a protectorate isn't a member of any kind; it is, rather, a description of a foreign state with a certain kind of relationship with the Federation (or the larger power). It's still a foreign state, and still sovereign, but it is one which the Federation has agreed (with their consent) to defend.

We do know that, even though the Federation possesses all of the powers and authorities that define a sovereign state in its own right, its Members do retain greater autonomy than tends to exist in modern federal systems. We know from Articles of the Federation, for instance, that Federation Members can conduct their own trade with non-Federation states (such as Nasat's trading relationship with the Tzenkethi Coalition) and can conduct limited forms of foreign relations with non-Federation states (such as Delta's attempting to negotiate with Carrea for their water reclamation system, which was eventually taken over by the Federation government directly). We also know from Paths of Disharmony that Federation Members retain Ambassadors to the UFP, independent of their Federation Councillors; that Federation Members retain their own Embassies on Earth, where the staffs or residences of their Federation Councillors can be housed (separate from their offices in the Palais) (established in Bajor: Fragments and Omens); and that Federation Members retain ambassadors to one-another (as Sarek was Vulcan Ambassador to Earth, established in ST09).

Given the Federation government's legal authority to assume control of the Delta-Carrea negotiations, I think the preponderance of evidence is that Federation Members retain limited foreign relations authorities under supervisory guidelines established by the Federation Department of the Exterior. I would also hypothesize that Federation Members can autonomously conduct certain relations and agreements with one-another, again subject to Federation authority (perhaps under the supervision of a Federation Department of the Interior?), perhaps in the same way that interstate compacts like the Great Lakes Compact can be concluded among U.S. states and the U.S. government, but on a much larger scale.

I don't see a significant number of Romulan worlds joining the Confederacy of Vulcan. It's not obvious to me that even friendliness towards Vulcan culture would translate into a desire for annexation into the Vulcan state, or that citizens of the Confederacy of Vulcan would like their state's political centre of gravity to be shifted radically to distant expanses colonized by a splinter culture that was traditionally hostile to the homeworld and has a culture radically different from that of the homeworld. (Think of European coldness towards the idea of further expansion of the EU, and then imagine that future prospects weren't limited to the western Balkans and Turkey but Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, and the rest of the former Soviet bloc.)

An excellent point. There again, I would suggest that it's possible that at least a few worlds might want to join the Confederacy of Vulcan -- perhaps not enough to truly shift the center of political gravity within the Vulcan polity, but maybe smaller worlds, more marginalized peripheral Romulan worlds where Unification became popular.

I rather see the Romulan successor state(s) opting for affiliation the Federation in its own right. Especially if it's the less-developed fringes of Romulan space which survive, Romulan civilization is going to need help to survive and continue to develop. How close would it be, though? Romulan membership in the UFP would make the UFP's near-peer enemy of longest standing easily one of the most important member-states of the Federation, quite possibly surpassing United Earth and the Confederacy of Vulcan. What sort of integration scheme would be possible? Would the Federation be able to handle this?

I think that would depend entirely on the specifics of the Romulan state or states that survive after Hobus. I doubt that any Romulan state seeking Federation Membership after Hobus would itself be powerful enough to "outweigh" Earth or Vulcan within the Federation -- and indeed, the Federation Council only gives a single vote to each Federation Member, irrelevant of population. But after Hobus, I suspect that any Romulan state seeking Federation Membership would itself have been rendered so much less powerful as to itself likely equal, but not meaningfully exceed, the relative economic and/or military powers of the majority of Federation Members.

I also suspect that this scenario would occur in a larger context of Romulan disharmony. We'd probably see at least a few Romulan states develop, if there's a Romulan state seeking Membership; the others would likely either strike a nationalist course, or would seek greater integration with the Typhon Pact allies.

Subject species like the Kevratans or Meridians will complicate things. If the RSE's hold over their worlds broke, presumably they would strive for independence and some sort of Federation affiliation to preserve their independence, analogous to the relationships of Drema IV and Bajor after those world's liberations. A close Federation-Romulan alliance, never mind Romulan membership in the Federation, would require radical liberalization of policies towards the Romulan subject species.

Perhaps, but Hobus itself may take care of that. If the surviving Romulan states are busy spending their resources and military capacities just trying to keep themselves together, then expending time and resources on keeping conquered worlds under the Romulan thumb may lose most political support. Cardassia wasn't much interested in reconquering Bajo after losing billions of its citizens to the Dominion -- Hobus may have a similar effect on the surviving Romulan state(s).

I think we can probably take it for granted that while the Federation may tolerate its foreign allies oppressing other cultures within their territory, it would not allow as a Member a state which wishes to continue oppressing a conquered world.

Complicating things further, what of the Typhon Pact? What form might Vulcan-Romulan reunification, or reconciliation, take in the context of the affiliations of the two different branches of the Vulcan species with two mutually-hostile blocs, especially since the Vulcans and Romulans are each major players in these blocs? The alternatives that Spock offered--generalized detente, mutual secession to form a new power bloc--remain valid. (Devastating the RSE is going to hurt the Typhon Pact's overall standing, but it might also empower other member-states.)

As I said, my suspicion is that we'd see multiple Romulan states in the wake of Hobus. One would probably seek greater cooperation with the Pact, to shore up their power base and help rebuild quickly without feeling as though they're indebted to the UFP. If Spock's Unification movement becomes popular enough, we might see another Romulan state, roughly as powerful as the individual Federation Members, seeking Membership for itself. Or we may see some rogue worlds just wishing to join the Confederacy of Vulcan.

Another interesting complication:

We know from ST09 that Spock promised to save Romulus and attempted to do so by himself (apparently without help from Starfleet). Why did he not seek help from Starfleet? Was Starfleet unable to help? We know that his failure to save Romulus led at least some Romulans, like Nero, to blame Spock and the Federation for the Hobus disaster -- but where was the Typhon Pact in all this? Why did the Pact worlds not realize what was happening and try to save Romulus? Are there Romulans who blame the other Pact states the same way Nero blamed Vulcan and the Federation?
 
That presupposes that the continuity progresses at a steady rate, which it doesn't. The books in recent years have jumped forward in time far more rapidly than they have in the past, or at least some of them have. Destiny was 2381, the first five Typhon Pact installments were in 2382, and some of this year's books are in 2383. If that pattern were to continue, the novels could catch up with 2387 within the next five years, give or take.

And this is why I like to write TOS novels. I don't have to worry about any of this! :)
 
If and when plans begin to be made for Hobus and its aftermath to be explored in Trek lit, it might be worth having Romulan territory centre-stage. Perhaps a fully Romulan series, like the Klingon Empire/IKS Gorkon novels? I know Romulans aren't quite on the level of Klingons when it comes to the casual reader's appeal, but they're familiar enough, surely, particularly since Trek XI used them as its prime antagonists? Exploring Nero's culture and society in the aftermath of the disaster that provoked his murderous rampage might be appealing even to those who don't follow the Trek lit continuity.

Not that we haven't gotten plenty of exposure to the Romulans already, but for maximum impact of whatever transpires post-Hobus, it might be worth establishing a cast of Romulan characters who can support their own novels. We're already halfway there in terms of interesting Romulan characters (even with the rapid turnover that defines the Star Empire's politics). That said, most of those are in positions of high authority and would probably be on Romulus at the time....

Whatever happens to the Romulans after the disaster, I'd like to think that Trek lit can make the most of it by placing us in the middle of the turmoil, with characters who are part of the mess and personally invested in the culture, rather than leaving us at a remove.
 
I've wanted a Romulan version of the IKS Gorkon/Klingon Empire series for a while, and that would be a great way IMO to launch such a series.
I really can't wait to see how Trek Lit tackles the events surrounding the Hobus incident. There are just so many fascinating directions they could take things.
 
But, yeah, the question of "variable-geometry federalism" is an interesting one. The United States can be argued to practice it today--the residents of the District of Columbia get three votes in the Electoral College, but they get no United States Senators and only a non-voting Delegate to the House of Representatives. The territories -- Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and the Northern Mariana Islands -- don't even get to vote in the Electoral College. And for D.C., the Congress must approve and can overrule any Act passed by the Council of the District of Columbia.

Inside Canada, Québec has taken the lead in extending its powers to the maximum extent possible, developing its own immigration and language laws, provincial pension fund independent of the federal one, even a relatively active foreign policy. Other provinces have the ability to do those things, too, but with the partial exception of the largest English-speaking provinces there is no inventive on their part to do so.

We know of at least one form of "variable-geometry federalism" within the UFP -- the Federation Councillors from the five founding Members (Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri) are always automatically placed on the Federation Security Council, no Presidential nomination or ratification from the full Council required. And we also know that it wasn't until circa 2230 that a Federate from a world outside of the five founding Members, Madza Bral of Trill, was elected President. Perhaps in the wake of Andor's secession, that surviving 22nd Century quirk has been abolished and the five founding wolds no longer get that special privilege? I would certainly hope so.

Looking at the problems with United Nations Security Council reform, I'd honestly not be surprised if the reform wasn't fulfilled.

* For starters, who gets Andor's seat: Bolarus, Trill, Betazed, Rigel, Bajor?

* Will the founding members have any interest in giving up their privileged positiions?

* Which powers get elevated? The G4 nations of Germany, Japan, Brazil and India probably should be put on the Security Council, but their regional rivals oppose the bill. I can imagine worlds that would merit permanent seats themselves--the five I named above are candidates--but would their rivals consent?

We know that there are distinctions between Federation members and Federation protectorates. Are there categories of associate UFP membership? Are there Euro or Schengen analogues (intensified, optional cooperation) inside the UFP? Et cetera.
Well, a protectorate isn't a member of any kind; it is, rather, a description of a foreign state with a certain kind of relationship with the Federation (or the larger power). It's still a foreign state, and still sovereign, but it is one which the Federation has agreed (with their consent) to defend.

No, but it is a state with a privileged relationship with the Federation. Something akin to associate membership?

Given the Federation government's legal authority to assume control of the Delta-Carrea negotiations, I think the preponderance of evidence is that Federation Members retain limited foreign relations authorities under supervisory guidelines established by the Federation Department of the Exterior. I would also hypothesize that Federation Members can autonomously conduct certain relations and agreements with one-another, again subject to Federation authority (perhaps under the supervision of a Federation Department of the Interior?), perhaps in the same way that interstate compacts like the Great Lakes Compact can be concluded among U.S. states and the U.S. government, but on a much larger scale.

The example of Québec might be relevant, as I suggested above.

I think that would depend entirely on the specifics of the Romulan state or states that survive after Hobus. I doubt that any Romulan state seeking Federation Membership after Hobus would itself be powerful enough to "outweigh" Earth or Vulcan within the Federation -- and indeed, the Federation Council only gives a single vote to each Federation Member, irrelevant of population. But after Hobus, I suspect that any Romulan state seeking Federation Membership would itself have been rendered so much less powerful as to itself likely equal, but not meaningfully exceed, the relative economic and/or military powers of the majority of Federation Members.

This may work to some degree, but I'm not sure.

On the one hand, if the core of Romulan territory remains intact it's plausible to expect that you'd have as a member-state a polity roughly the size of the Federation core, within easy travel of the Federation core and a population probably within an order of magnitude of the Federation core. This polity would be substantially larger than any of the established member-states, and would have a very distinctive history from the different member-states.

On the other hand, if Romulan space fragments--not only subject species splitting off but different Romulan-populated worlds--then you could conceivably get multiple Romulan-populated member-states of the Federation, maybe even a bloc of sorts.

Subject species like the Kevratans or Meridians will complicate things. If the RSE's hold over their worlds broke, presumably they would strive for independence and some sort of Federation affiliation to preserve their independence, analogous to the relationships of Drema IV and Bajor after those world's liberations. A close Federation-Romulan alliance, never mind Romulan membership in the Federation, would require radical liberalization of policies towards the Romulan subject species.
Perhaps, but Hobus itself may take care of that. If the surviving Romulan states are busy spending their resources and military capacities just trying to keep themselves together, then expending time and resources on keeping conquered worlds under the Romulan thumb may lose most political support. Cardassia wasn't much interested in reconquering Bajo after losing billions of its citizens to the Dominion -- Hobus may have a similar effect on the surviving Romulan state(s).[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

I think we can probably take it for granted that while the Federation may tolerate its foreign allies oppressing other cultures within their territory, it would not allow as a Member a state which wishes to continue oppressing a conquered world.

Agreed.

[M]y suspicion is that we'd see multiple Romulan states in the wake of Hobus. One would probably seek greater cooperation with the Pact, to shore up their power base and help rebuild quickly without feeling as though they're indebted to the UFP. If Spock's Unification movement becomes popular enough, we might see another Romulan state, roughly as powerful as the individual Federation Members, seeking Membership for itself. Or we may see some rogue worlds just wishing to join the Confederacy of Vulcan.

I don't see Romulan worlds joining the Confederacy of Vulcan: support in even the most pro-American Canadian provinces for American statehood is in the single digits percentages right now, and Canadian-American relations aren't nearly as embittered as Romulan-Vulcan ones.

A lot depends on how fragmented Romulan civilization is. I'd be willing to bet that thanks to in part to the homogeneity of the original settlers of the Eisn system and the consequences of Romulan militarism on competing/hostile species, Romulan space is significantly more homogeneous than comparably-sized volumes of Federation space. (The fate of the Haakonans, and the suffering casually inflicted on Coridan and Draylax, are perhaps indicative.)

Subject species splitting off to form their own successor states in the context of a breakdown of the Romulan state can be taken for granted.

But what of the Romulans? There have been references made, in the shows and in the books, to different Romulan languages and phenotypes, and ethnic/regional rivalries and divisions between different clans, but I get the sense that Romulan civilization is relatively homogeneous. Is this core of Romulan space more likely to permanently fragment than, say, Russia (as distinct from the other SSRs, partial exception of Chechnya aside) after the fall of the Soviet Union? I'm not sure.

Another interesting complication:

We know from ST09 that Spock promised to save Romulus and attempted to do so by himself (apparently without help from Starfleet). Why did he not seek help from Starfleet? Was Starfleet unable to help? We know that his failure to save Romulus led at least some Romulans, like Nero, to blame Spock and the Federation for the Hobus disaster -- but where was the Typhon Pact in all this? Why did the Pact worlds not realize what was happening and try to save Romulus? Are there Romulans who blame the other Pact states the same way Nero blamed Vulcan and the Federation?

I wouldn't be surprised.

One commonality of the various descriptions of the Hobus supernova is that it took almost everybody by surprise, Spock being the only personality described who took Nero's warnings seriously. Was he actually the only one?

I do feel sorry for Praetor Kamemor. The Romulans got their first sane praetor in something like a century, a leader devoted to peace and cooperation (while maintaining a robust defense of Romulan interests, to be sure), and what happens?
 
You know I just thought of something.

It's a good thing the Romulans are members of the Typhon Pact or else they would be screwed when Romulus gets destroyed seeing as the Klingons don't particularly like them and as such wouldn't have a problem invading and conquering them like they did in the future from All Good Things.
 
It's a good thing the Romulans are members of the Typhon Pact or else they would be screwed when Romulus gets destroyed.

Why is that Romulus being destroyed 'screws' the Romulans. Surely there are other important places, regional seats of government and military establishments. Capitals change - be they called Leningrad and Moscow in the 20th century, or Winchester and London in the 12-13th centuries - and strong government is not situated just in one location. Perhaps we are too used to the trope of the loss of the White House equalling the total collapse of society, a la Independence Day or other silly disaster films, and apply this onto Romulus?

Has anyone ever said how vast and quick the destruction of the Hobus supernova was? It is a scientific implausibility that a vast area of space would be lost instantly, but then, this is Trek.
 
"The Needs of the Many" has the Hobus supernova originating an almighty 500 light-years from Romulus (:eek:), and expanding at multiwarp speeds. Spock's line that the supernova threatening to destroy the galaxy is taken seriously, and backed up with talk of deadly radiation.
The timing is a little vague, but Nero has time to upgrade Narada at The Forge (called The Vault in "Countdown"), and even launch a conventional attack on Vulcan after Romulus' destruction and prior to him intercepting Spock.

In the movie itself, the flashforward shows the star exploding, then Spock meeting with Romulan leadership and promising to save their planet, then the Jellyfish being refitted on Vulcan with Red Matter and launched, and Romulus being obliterated while Spock is en route. So, I'd say events took much longer than the inital impression given by the scene.
 
It's a good thing the Romulans are members of the Typhon Pact or else they would be screwed when Romulus gets destroyed.

Why is that Romulus being destroyed 'screws' the Romulans. Surely there are other important places, regional seats of government and military establishments. Capitals change - be they called Leningrad and Moscow in the 20th century, or Winchester and London in the 12-13th centuries - and strong government is not situated just in one location. Perhaps we are too used to the trope of the loss of the White House equalling the total collapse of society, a la Independence Day or other silly disaster films, and apply this onto Romulus?

I see the destruction of Romulus being Hobus as being akin in its impact to Romulan civilization to--say--the destruction of the Eastern Seaboard in the United States, or the northeast of China, or of the Sao Paulo-Rio de Janeiro corridor in Brazil, or of the Moscow-St. Petersburg corridor in Russia. Most of the country is intact (mainly because it's such a big country), most of the population and economic base even, but the core of the old state including its main economic, political, and cultural centers have been destroyed. The polity that's left lacks its central institutions: the surviving components (military units, planets, other political entities) are left to cope as best they can and to try to reassemble some central government.

Has anyone ever said how vast and quick the destruction of the Hobus supernova was? It is a scientific implausibility that a vast area of space would be lost instantly, but then, this is Trek.

No one has said. If it's large enough to destroy the entire Romulan Star Empire, then it would also be large enough to destroy adjacent chunks of the Federation, including some of the core worlds.

Hmm. Star Charts seems to imply that Romulus orbits a star very near Epsilon Phoenicis, an orange giant star (K0III) about 140 light years away from Sol. It's only slightly more massive than Sol (Wolfram Alpha gives it a mass of 1.1 Sols) so it can't go supernova unaided, but maybe someone helped?
 
Perhaps we are too used to the trope of the loss of the White House equalling the total collapse of society, a la Independence Day

:wtf:

They didn't just destroy the White House they took out all of Washington D.C. meaning Congress and anyone who didn't escape before it was destroyed were killed. Not to mention the Vice President being killed when new York was destroyed and the fact that the Joint Chiefs were said to have been killed in the attacks on screen.

It's a good thing the Romulans are members of the Typhon Pact or else they would be screwed when Romulus gets destroyed.

Why is that Romulus being destroyed 'screws' the Romulans. Surely there are other important places, regional seats of government and military establishments. Capitals change - be they called Leningrad and Moscow in the 20th century, or Winchester and London in the 12-13th centuries - and strong government is not situated just in one location. Perhaps we are too used to the trope of the loss of the White House equalling the total collapse of society, a la Independence Day or other silly disaster films, and apply this onto Romulus?

I see the destruction of Romulus being Hobus as being akin in its impact to Romulan civilization to--say--the destruction of the Eastern Seaboard in the United States, or the northeast of China, or of the Sao Paulo-Rio de Janeiro corridor in Brazil, or of the Moscow-St. Petersburg corridor in Russia. Most of the country is intact (mainly because it's such a big country), most of the population and economic base even, but the core of the old state including its main economic, political, and cultural centers have been destroyed. The polity that's left lacks its central institutions: the surviving components (military units, planets, other political entities) are left to cope as best they can and to try to reassemble some central government.

Not to mention the possibility of several different groups and/or people claiming to be the new government and leading to massive confusion and infighting when the resulting power struggles occur.

I mean the Romulan government didn't just magically glue itself back together after Shinzon only killed a major part of the Senate, I don't see it happening when the entire Romulan government is taken out.
 
I've wanted a Romulan version of the IKS Gorkon/Klingon Empire series for a while, and that would be a great way IMO to launch such a series.
I really can't wait to see how Trek Lit tackles the events surrounding the Hobus incident. There are just so many fascinating directions they could take things.

I've really enjoyed the Romulan arc(s) over the last few years - the political Trek stories generally appeal, but I really think we've had enough focus on the Romulans for a while.

Having said that, the reunification thing really should be tied up (or at least moved forward) by the time Spock disappears...
 
I don't see 'Reunification' finishing any time soon.

It WOULD be interesting to see if Spock's apparent heroic sacrifice (even if it failed) sways the opinions of Romulans.
 
No, the Pact is too big. It might damage the Romulan Star Empire, but maybe not even that....

But the Romulan Star Empire is the single biggest, and arguably most technologically advanced, member-state of the Typhon Pact. Having the RSE's home space shattered and the remainder of the empire fall into anarchy is definitely going to provoke major power shifts within the Pact, as well as without.
 
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