When/If Trek Lit reaches 2387

[Sci]

Given it's unclear on the actual relationship between member worlds, who's to say, that the Federation is actually based on a European Union model of governance, not, the American federal model, if in fact it's the former, having an ambassador on other member worlds makes sense.

When the European Union establishes a single legislature and a single popularly elected president and a single cabinet, all of which is NOT comprised of or controlled by officials from the Member state governments; when it starts conducting a single foreign policy on behalf of its Members, including having the power to declare and wage war without its Member governments' permissions; when it establishes a single fiscal policy and common currency for all of its Members; when it establishes its own standing army; and when its President gains the power to declare martial law and place its standing army on the streets of its Members...

It's not obvious that the Federation has exclusive competence in many of these areas. "Reunification" depicts Vulcan as having standing military forces,

The State of Ohio maintains a standing military force, including its own naval patrol. This does not mean the State of Ohio is a sovereign state.

while despite being a world in a federation with a moneyless economy the Bolian homeworld has its famous bank.

Star Trek is full of contradictory information about whether or not the Federation is truly "moneyless," including contradictions about whether or not Earth itself is moneyless.

The idea of the Federation as a polity where the central state dominates and the member-states have only residual powers, on the model of American federalism, doesn't strike me as intuitively plausible.

It's perfectly fair to argue that the Federation's version of federalism involves greater autonomy for the Member worlds than American federalism currently involves for U.S. states, but the preponderance of evidence is that the Federation is clearly a sovereign state in its own right -- far moreso than the current European Union.

 

[rfmcdpei]

It's not obvious that the Federation has exclusive competence in many of these areas. "Reunification" depicts Vulcan as having standing military forces,

The State of Ohio maintains a standing military force, including its own naval patrol. This does not mean the State of Ohio is a sovereign state.

No, it doesn't mean that Ohio is a sovereign state, at least not now in the post-Civil War framework of American federalism.

while despite being a world in a federation with a moneyless economy the Bolian homeworld has its famous bank.

Star Trek is full of contradictory information about whether or not the Federation is truly "moneyless," including contradictions about whether or not Earth itself is moneyless.

Right. The Bolian homeworld still stands out as an interesting ... something.

The idea of the Federation as a polity where the central state dominates and the member-states have only residual powers, on the model of American federalism, doesn't strike me as intuitively plausible.

It's perfectly fair to argue that the Federation's version of federalism involves greater autonomy for the Member worlds than American federalism currently involves for U.S. states, but the preponderance of evidence is that the Federation is clearly a sovereign state in its own right -- far moreso than the current European Union.

More so than the current European Union, but less than the United States. The Andorians did successfully secede. Were the Federation as tight an entity as most real-life federations--the United States, say--Andorian secession would have been impossible.

 

[RandyS]

In the Countdown comic miniseries' version of the events of 2387, Picard is the ambassador to Vulcan (though why a Federation world would need an ambassador assigned to it is unclear), Data has been conveniently resurrected (with only one or two sentences of explanation) and become captain of the Enterprise, Geordi has retired to become a starship designer (he's credited with designing the Jellyfish even though that was a Vulcan ship), and Worf has become a general in the Klingon Defense Force for some reason.

Oh, I see. I haven't read Countdown yet.

And I agree about Picard being an ambassador. It didn't make sense to me that Sarek was Vulcan's ambassador to the Federation when Vulcan was one of it's founding members.

 

[RandyS]

The great thing about the fact that "Parallels" and other episodes established that multiple quantum timelines exist concurrently is that the "destruction of Romulus" future doesn't necessarily have to be the "our universe" future, in much the same way that the "NuTrek" universe's existence doesn't mean that the TOS universe was "wiped out."

So few episodes... So much wiggle room!

Agreed. Parrallels gave the writers a great out. Anything that doesn't "add up" can simply be explained away as taking place in one of those 285,000 odd universes that episode gave us.

That's why I tend to accept everything weither it's regarded as canon or not.

 

[Sci]

It's perfectly fair to argue that the Federation's version of federalism involves greater autonomy for the Member worlds than American federalism currently involves for U.S. states, but the preponderance of evidence is that the Federation is clearly a sovereign state in its own right -- far moreso than the current European Union.

More so than the current European Union, but less than the United States. The Andorians did successfully secede. Were the Federation as tight an entity as most real-life federations--the United States, say--Andorian secession would have been impossible.

Oh, absolutely. I am not arguing that the Federation is the United States writ large. (Amongst other things, I don't believe that the Federation's cultures could be accurately characterized as "imperialist white-supremacist capitalist patriarchy" the way American culture can.)

But I do assert that the Federation is a sovereign state, and that the European Union is not.

 

[Sjaddix]

Honestly, when they say moneyless in federation. I just assumed the government no longer prints or mints any hard currency. Its all done via credit cards or maybe finger prints or iris scans.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I would assert that every member world (possibly including colony worlds) has an ambassador to the Federation, and the Federation has an ambassador to each member world. The UFP seems to be a fairly loose but expansive political entity in which every member world is completely autonomous but is a member of a larger political entity, if that makes any sense.

There is no political entity on Earth that is completely analogous to the Federation, but there parts of the Federation's political make-up that are similar to current or former political entities on Earth, and probably Vulcan, Andor and Tellar.

I hope that when (it will happen eventually, so it's not an "if") Treklit reaches 2387, the writers will do what they do best and give us the best story they can give us. Christopher Bennett, David Mack, Ward/Dilmore, DRG III, Kirsten Beyer, Mike Martin, and so on; any of these authors could do a good story for the Hobus supernova, probably even a great story.

The truth is that many of us, including me, will read it regardless.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I There is no political entity on Earth that is completely analogous to the Federation, but there parts of the Federation's political make-up that are similar to current or former political entities on Earth, and probably Vulcan, Andor and Tellar.

I think that's exactly the way to look at it. It seems silly to me to try to draw exact comparisons with the USA, the EU, the Commonwealth or whatever.

 

[Ronald Held]

Will we find out what happens to the Unification movement after Spock's death?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think that's gonna be pretty moot!

 

[Captaindemotion]

All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Romulus together again.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Honestly, when they say moneyless in federation. I just assumed the government no longer prints or mints any hard currency. Its all done via credit cards or maybe finger prints or iris scans.

Agreed. Like in TNG, when Beverly buys a piece of fabric and says "Put it on [her] account".

The UFP seems to be a fairly loose but expansive political entity in which every member world is completely autonomous but is a member of a larger political entity, if that makes any sense.

In their own local governing, maybe. Federation worlds seem to be left to run their own affairs as they see fit, provided they abide by Federation law.

But I do assert that the Federation is a sovereign state, and that the European Union is not.

Do you think the EU ever *will* be such a state?

As for Treklit post-2387: I like to think they're building up for something massive. Once Romulus goes the way of the dodo, there'll be some exciting works in store.

 

[Christopher]

All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Romulus together again.

There are other worlds in the Romulan Star Empire. Destroying the capital world doesn't destroy the entire civilization. I'm sure not all Unificationists live on Romulus itself. If anything, before it was legalized, the movement probably thrived the most on other worlds that weren't as closely watched by the state.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/joke?s=t

 

[Christopher]

Actually I was referring to the series of three posts that ended with yours. I just quoted yours because I thought it would be too cluttered to quote all three.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ Fair enough.

 

[Sci]

But I do assert that the Federation is a sovereign state, and that the European Union is not.

Do you think the EU ever *will* be such a state?

Well, I'd say that the essential problem the European Union is facing today is that its members want to have the benefits of being in a larger sovereign state (common currency, etc.) without the costs (loss of their own sovereignty). And this simply does not work -- Greece is a prime example; had the Hellenic Republic its own currency, it would be able to devalue the currency like Argentina did when it defaulted on its loans in the early 00s. You cannot have a common monetary policy without a common fiscal policy.

So I think one way or the other, the European Union will have to shit or get off the pot. Eventually, this half-measure won't work, and they'll need to either decide to unite into a single, democratic Europe, or to devolve the European Union back into a coalition that does not possess any of the traits of a sovereign state.

I don't know which way it goes, but I don't expect the current situation to last in the long run.

* * *

As for Spock's unification movement...

It's the Romulan Star Empire. It consists of more than just Romulus and Remus. Romulan culture will still survive on other Romulan worlds. The real question will be, shall the Star Empire survive with a new capital, or will it sunder again? And if Spock's movement succeeds, will the Romulan worlds join the Federation as Federation Member worlds in their own right, or as a common Member? Or will they join the Confederacy of Vulcan, which is itself already a Member?

(I suppose this is a bit like asking if Canada would join the United States as its own state, or with each province becoming its own state, or with the provinces becoming part of New York State, Michigan, Maine, etc.)

 

[Relayer1]

Do you think the EU ever *will* be such a state?

It's very unlikely (I'd bet my last ten pounds against it) as the UK won't ever consider itself fully 'European'. We still see ourselves as the country that stood 'alone' against invasion in WWII and have a much bigger political and military presence in the world than our size would justify. We're also an awkward bunch of b*******s.

Some of the rest of Europe might go for it, but I don't think we'd be the only holdouts...

 

[Sci]

Do you think the EU ever *will* be such a state?

It's very unlikely (I'd bet my last ten pounds against it) as the UK won't ever consider itself fully 'European'. We still see ourselves as the country that stood 'alone' against invasion in WWII and have a much bigger political and military presence in the world than our size would justify. We're also an awkward bunch of b*******s.

Some of the rest of Europe might go for it, but I don't think we'd be the only holdouts...

Of course, it's also possible that the European Union could become a sovereign state, but one which only encompasses those states willing to yield their national sovereignty and which expels those unwilling. So maybe we'd see a European Union comprised of, for instance, Germany, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Italy, Portugal, Spain, and Denmark, but not the United Kingdom, Ireland, Finland, Sweden, and Poland.

Or the whole thing could just fall apart. Who knows? But one way or the other, the current situation is unsustainable.

 

[CaptainSarine]

Do you think the EU ever *will* be such a state?

It's very unlikely (I'd bet my last ten pounds against it) as the UK won't ever consider itself fully 'European'. We still see ourselves as the country that stood 'alone' against invasion in WWII and have a much bigger political and military presence in the world than our size would justify. We're also an awkward bunch of b*******s.

Some of the rest of Europe might go for it, but I don't think we'd be the only holdouts...

Of course, it's also possible that the European Union could become a sovereign state, but one which only encompasses those states willing to yield their national sovereignty and which expels those unwilling. So maybe we'd see a European Union comprised of, for instance, Germany, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Italy, Portugal, Spain, and Denmark, but not the United Kingdom, Ireland, Finland, Sweden, and Poland.

Or the whole thing could just fall apart. Who knows? But one way or the other, the current situation is unsustainable.

I'm a Brit living in France and I don't think France would ever accept to yield their national sovereignty to some uber-European state, not any time soon, anyway. I doubt Germany would either. And without those two countries, I can't imagine the others managing to put together a viable state.

Of course at the end of the day, anything is possible.