That's right, but for some reason his words with Spock about selective breeding were a lot more memorable.
Anyway, "controlled genetics" could mean something as simple as selective breeding if we wanted to read it that way.
When exactly did Marla McGivers die?
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That's right, but for some reason his words with Spock about selective breeding were a lot more memorable.
Anyway, "controlled genetics" could mean something as simple as selective breeding if we wanted to read it that way.
True, but nowadays, and especially in an sf context, "genetic engineering" usually refers to scientists tinkering around with DNA in a lab. As opposed to eugenic breeding programs of the sort discussed in "Space Seed."
Granted, the use of the term "controlled genetics" allows for a bit of wiggle room.
Not in the Space Seed episode. Scotty says they are a mix of people.
MARLA: From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors.
MCCOY: Heart beat now fifty two and increasing.
KIRK: The others?
SCOTT: There's no change, and they're mixed types. Western, mid-European, Latin, Oriental.
Exactly. "Space Seed" makes of point of stressing that Khan's crew is multiethnic. ("Ling! Macpherson!") which is why it's odd that WOK turned them all into Aryan types.
Everything, if you believe the introduction of the term Augments is a retcon. Nothing, if you believe that it is not.
"Space Seed" retconned mankind's early conflicts into having the name Eugenics Wars. It retconned mankind's early spaceflight as featuring cryosleep and gradually advancing sublight engines. It retconned into existence 1990s supermen.
None of that in any way contradicted what had been said earlier. But then again, neither did the introduction of the term Augments.
Timo Saloniemi
How can "Space Seed" be retconning anything that wasn't "conned" to begin with? It's my understanding that a retcon only occurs when something that was firmly established is changed, not when something is "changed" that was never specified to begin with.
Otherwise one could argue that everything that occurs in "The Cage" is a retcon because none of it was yet established. I don't think that's how the term was intended to be used.
It seems Wikipedia is supporting my understanding of the term.(citation needed)
Otherwise one could argue that everything that occurs in "The Cage" is a retcon because none of it was yet established. I don't think that's how the term was intended to be used.
It seems Wikipedia is supporting my understanding of the term.(citation needed)
The way I read Timo's post, they were arguing that Space Seed -is- a retcon:
""Space Seed" retconned mankind's early conflicts into having the name Eugenics Wars. It retconned mankind's early spaceflight as featuring cryosleep and gradually advancing sublight engines. It retconned into existence 1990s supermen."
Perhaps I misunderstood though.
""Space Seed" retconned mankind's early conflicts into having the name Eugenics Wars. It retconned mankind's early spaceflight as featuring cryosleep and gradually advancing sublight engines. It retconned into existence 1990s supermen."
Perhaps I misunderstood though.
The confusion was the point, yeah.
There seem to be two definitions of retcon floating around. One is that something is first established, even if in a half-hearted way, and then something newer contradicts and supersedes it. The other is that something about the past is established retroactively when nothing about it was previously known.
Calling Khan an Augment seems to fall squarely in the latter category, so calling it a retcon means having to call other things retcon as well, and having to adopt the second, less common definition.
Then again, establishing cryosleep as an early feature of the Trek universe is something of a contradiction of a previous fact. What would be so "impossible" about the voyage of the Valiant if it were standard procedure for crews to survive for decades in cryosleep? Why did the heroes not speculate on the possible survival of the original crew across the two centuries? And why is this treatment of past starflight repeated in TAS "Time Trap" with the Bonaventure, after our heroes had already been through "Space Seed"?
Since even later episodes dropped even more cues about these things, and they all add up to a fairly consistent whole, calling cryosleep a "retcon" is IMHO excessive. But perhaps not quite as excessive as calling Augments a retcon.
Timo Saloniemi
There seem to be two definitions of retcon floating around. One is that something is first established, even if in a half-hearted way, and then something newer contradicts and supersedes it. The other is that something about the past is established retroactively when nothing about it was previously known.
Calling Khan an Augment seems to fall squarely in the latter category, so calling it a retcon means having to call other things retcon as well, and having to adopt the second, less common definition.
Then again, establishing cryosleep as an early feature of the Trek universe is something of a contradiction of a previous fact. What would be so "impossible" about the voyage of the Valiant if it were standard procedure for crews to survive for decades in cryosleep? Why did the heroes not speculate on the possible survival of the original crew across the two centuries? And why is this treatment of past starflight repeated in TAS "Time Trap" with the Bonaventure, after our heroes had already been through "Space Seed"?
Since even later episodes dropped even more cues about these things, and they all add up to a fairly consistent whole, calling cryosleep a "retcon" is IMHO excessive. But perhaps not quite as excessive as calling Augments a retcon.
Timo Saloniemi
I suppose one could argue the degree of retcon, a "hard" and "soft" retcon if you will. If the term augment had been the accepted term for Khan and his ilk during that time, it is very odd (but not impossible) that it was not used in Space Seed. Similar to how Denobulans were never heard of after ENT; it is possible, but odd.
You're being too literal. Of course the augments are not an exact 1:1 analogy of the Hitler youth, but it's a very strong and obvious connection that was being drawn, and visually, making them blonde and blue eyed in Khan was done for that purpose.
From a matter of human rights, the issue is basically the same. Hitler believed that genetic perfection was the key to human development, and that if you can prove your genes are better then the next guy, then you are entitled, by birth, to be above others. That's the running theme. This is a common thread in Trek, that you should be respected even if you're handicapped (Geordi being blind) because you may have other qualities unique to you as an individual.
In the comic book, a faction that was against Khan finds a Ceti eel, puts one in a sack, then kidnaps Marla and puts the sack over her head, thus killing her eventually (this happens after the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI.) Khan kills the person responsible while Ceti Alpha V goes to hell from all of the accumulated asteroid strikes resulting from the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI (not 'the shock shifting the orbit' as was said in the movie, and the reason why the person responsible acted against Khan-he believe that Khan wasn't acting responsibly as leader, and so used the Ceti eel to get Marla to kill Khan.)
Just wanted to say that, partly prompted by this thread, I'm re-reading the appropriate novels.
Works for me!
Done with the first two books...mostly did a full read but did do a little skimming along the way. A vile plot has just been hatched against Marla!
I'll say the third book does a fair amount to redeem Marla's character, if one feels that redemption was needed. Perhaps it would have been nice if we got a bit more insight into whether Khan originally seduced her solely to take control of Enterprise, or whether there was any underlying feeling initially.
I've also got to say that Khan's group IMO wins the award for people most put through long-term hell in a Trek novel in terms of intensity, though the ill-fated crew of Columbia win for longevity.
I admit that, especially on a re-read, the multitudinous references to other Trek works get a bit too close to fanwank for my comfort zone. I mean, they are entertaining, but it is a bit of "small universe", and I can see why some readers would be alienated by it.
I'm not sure about the realism of Khan being able to coax data out of the Beta 5 either, but it obviously needs to happen for the plot to advance, and it doesn't seem totally ludicrous.
Overall they are a fun read! Well, book 3 is less fun than the earlier works.
Greg - if you'd be willing to share any thoughts you have on your own books given several years to reconsider them, I'd be grateful.
On an unrelated note (and hopefully I'm not damaging any writers' brewing ideas) I'd be curious to see a Myriad Universes story where Khan lived up to his potential for good instead of falling prey to his own arrogance.
I'll say the third book does a fair amount to redeem Marla's character, if one feels that redemption was needed. Perhaps it would have been nice if we got a bit more insight into whether Khan originally seduced her solely to take control of Enterprise, or whether there was any underlying feeling initially.
I've also got to say that Khan's group IMO wins the award for people most put through long-term hell in a Trek novel in terms of intensity, though the ill-fated crew of Columbia win for longevity.
I admit that, especially on a re-read, the multitudinous references to other Trek works get a bit too close to fanwank for my comfort zone. I mean, they are entertaining, but it is a bit of "small universe", and I can see why some readers would be alienated by it.
I'm not sure about the realism of Khan being able to coax data out of the Beta 5 either, but it obviously needs to happen for the plot to advance, and it doesn't seem totally ludicrous.
Overall they are a fun read! Well, book 3 is less fun than the earlier works.
Greg - if you'd be willing to share any thoughts you have on your own books given several years to reconsider them, I'd be grateful.
On an unrelated note (and hopefully I'm not damaging any writers' brewing ideas) I'd be curious to see a Myriad Universes story where Khan lived up to his potential for good instead of falling prey to his own arrogance.
Hello everyone,
To revert to foxhot’s original question, I’ve been considering a whole new option just recently: Kirk went back to Ceti Alpha V. My scenario is that "Space Seed" happens fairly early on in the 5-year mission (late July or August 2266 depending on how I finalise things, stardates 3141 to 3143) and then the Enterprise makes a return visit, towards the end of the original mission (maybe March or April, 2269, before TAS, when Chekov’s still definitely aboard, stardate around 5550). This allows Khan to remember Chekov without him having to hide somewhere on the ship for the first year of the show. It means that the "fifteen years" that both Khan and Kirk say has elapsed since their last meeting takes us to the mid-2280s, rather than the early 2280s. (I’m thinking of placing Star Trek II in April 2285, to match up with nuTrek putting Kirk’s birth in 2233.04, and also to fit with the death of Joran Belar on stardate 8615.2, 86 years before "Equilibrium". The movies III-V would follow Star Trek II between April and August 2285.)
My guess is that the Ceti eels seem to be a desert creature (they live in sand), and they wouldn’t really come into contact with the settlers until the planet started turning into a desert, after the Ceti Alpha VI explosion, I’d put that six months after the second visit, September or October 2269, approximately stardate 6050. I’d kind of assumed that none of the children born on Ceti Alpha V survived, and only the youngest of the frozen supermen made it. They’re all blond and pale-skinned because the alkaline chemicals in the Ceti sand have bleached the colour out of their hair and skin. (Well, at least it completely and totally avoids the whole "people with yellow hair and pale skins are somehow superior" nonsense.)
So my "out-of-nowhere" suggestion is that Marla McGivers dies about a year after the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI, September or October 2270, stardate around 6950. Khan is eaten up with hate because Kirk did return, once, then never again. The dialogue doesn’t really support this theory, but (at least as far as I’m concerned) it doesn’t absolutely rule it out, either.
Of course, if Kirk goes back MUCH later, say 2275, then it’d be 2290 when Star Trek II and III happen, making sense of Admiral Morrow’s comment that the Enterprise is 20 years old. Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave time for Captain Sulu’s thrilling mission to survey gaseous anomalies before Star Trek VI. I still haven’t thought of an answer to that one.
Last, I’d just like to say I’ve read and enjoyed Greg Cox’s books about Khan. So Foxhot, if you want to stick close to stuff that’s been in the official books and the established continuity, I’d follow what he says, and ignore my idle speculations. Cannon? Wasn’t he that um… burly detective?
Timon
To revert to foxhot’s original question, I’ve been considering a whole new option just recently: Kirk went back to Ceti Alpha V. My scenario is that "Space Seed" happens fairly early on in the 5-year mission (late July or August 2266 depending on how I finalise things, stardates 3141 to 3143) and then the Enterprise makes a return visit, towards the end of the original mission (maybe March or April, 2269, before TAS, when Chekov’s still definitely aboard, stardate around 5550). This allows Khan to remember Chekov without him having to hide somewhere on the ship for the first year of the show. It means that the "fifteen years" that both Khan and Kirk say has elapsed since their last meeting takes us to the mid-2280s, rather than the early 2280s. (I’m thinking of placing Star Trek II in April 2285, to match up with nuTrek putting Kirk’s birth in 2233.04, and also to fit with the death of Joran Belar on stardate 8615.2, 86 years before "Equilibrium". The movies III-V would follow Star Trek II between April and August 2285.)
My guess is that the Ceti eels seem to be a desert creature (they live in sand), and they wouldn’t really come into contact with the settlers until the planet started turning into a desert, after the Ceti Alpha VI explosion, I’d put that six months after the second visit, September or October 2269, approximately stardate 6050. I’d kind of assumed that none of the children born on Ceti Alpha V survived, and only the youngest of the frozen supermen made it. They’re all blond and pale-skinned because the alkaline chemicals in the Ceti sand have bleached the colour out of their hair and skin. (Well, at least it completely and totally avoids the whole "people with yellow hair and pale skins are somehow superior" nonsense.)
So my "out-of-nowhere" suggestion is that Marla McGivers dies about a year after the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI, September or October 2270, stardate around 6950. Khan is eaten up with hate because Kirk did return, once, then never again. The dialogue doesn’t really support this theory, but (at least as far as I’m concerned) it doesn’t absolutely rule it out, either.
Of course, if Kirk goes back MUCH later, say 2275, then it’d be 2290 when Star Trek II and III happen, making sense of Admiral Morrow’s comment that the Enterprise is 20 years old. Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave time for Captain Sulu’s thrilling mission to survey gaseous anomalies before Star Trek VI. I still haven’t thought of an answer to that one.
Last, I’d just like to say I’ve read and enjoyed Greg Cox’s books about Khan. So Foxhot, if you want to stick close to stuff that’s been in the official books and the established continuity, I’d follow what he says, and ignore my idle speculations. Cannon? Wasn’t he that um… burly detective?
Timon
...But you seem to be counting by stardate, which means Chekov is already a bridge officer by the time of "Space Seed", having made his debut earlier on in "Catspaw".
But just because it's nonsense is no reason to avoid it - indeed, it being nonsense is why it's so darn popular in entertainment. "Nazi" isn't pronounced "nutsy" for nothing.
That is, if somebody on Ceti Alpha V decided that people with white hair and pale skin (say, Khan, which his already white hair and non-negroid complexion) were superior, he'd certainly act on it! Now that the desperate flight with some eighty competitors was over, and compromises could be forgotten, the elimination game between the supermen could finally begin. In the end, there can be only one (phenotype)...
As for the nuances of dialogue, fitting your model in isn't all that impossible in the end. Khan does say Kirk marooned him and the others "on the barren sand heap" (contradicted by facts of marooning in "Space Seed"), and "never bothered to check on their progress" (made doubtful by the 15 years reference if taken literally). Might well be Kirk marooned Khan twice, then: first on the harsh but fertile Ceti Alpha V, then again on the barren sand heap Ceti Alpha V (by visiting, seeing that things were bad, and nevertheless leaving). And then he failed to check on how they were doing.
Kirk would probably have done all that on his own time, though, without bringing his starship along. The place isn't all that far out in the sticks, and Kirk has access to various private or commercial starcraft when the UFP doesn't declare an inconvenient quarantine to hinder him. Or then he can operate small Starfleet craft of sufficient range, like the various TAS designs, and file a false flight plan.
Timo Saloniemi
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