When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

[Therin of Andor]

I spoke with Judson Scott (who played Joachim) at a convention once. He believed that Joachim was indeed Khan's son and that's how he played him.

And you and I discussed this online before you wrote the book, and it was such a buzz to hear you formulating your plan of attack for how you'd handle events; Judson was a guest at an Aussie con in the 80s - I had to break the news to him (the morning he arrived Down Under) that "V: The Series" had just been announced as cancelled. He'd been told that Lt James was about to get his own ship in Season Two! Ooops.

Judson was invited to Ricardo's house when he was cast and they did script readings together, establishing for themselves their backstory, as actors often do. In a "Starlog" interview, he says of Khan: "He's my Daddy!"

There was a painting prepared as set dressing, though: of Marla (ie a self portrait), Khan and the little kid (who was seen at the porthole in the cut footage), indicating that not too long had passed between Marla's death and the events of ST II, but of course the pic was not seen on screen - and neither Judson nor Ricardo knew that it was created when they worked on their backstory.

I rather like that the Ceti eels went rampant after the planetary orbit shift.

Since this had never been "officially" established, I split the difference and made him Khan's foster son in the book.

And it works rather well. Some people guess that Joachim in ST II is simply an Aryan-revised, misspelled version of "Space Seed"'s dark-haired Joaquin (Mark Tobin).

 

[Timewalker]

Too bad about V. But I preferred Judson Scott as Bennu in "Phoenix." (that was a Really Short Series!)

 

[FormerLurker]

Since this had never been "officially" established, I split the difference and made him Khan's foster son in the book.

And it works rather well. Some people guess that Joachim in ST II is simply an Aryan-revised, misspelled version of "Space Seed"'s dark-haired Joaquin (Mark Tobin).

Judson Scott is one of these people, and has been since the '80s. He even insists that Joachim, which Ricardo Montalban pronounced onscreen as "YO-uh-KEEM", is pronounced "wah-KEEM". Or at least he did when he was at the Denver Star Trek convention last.

 

[Timewalker]

Since this had never been "officially" established, I split the difference and made him Khan's foster son in the book.

And it works rather well. Some people guess that Joachim in ST II is simply an Aryan-revised, misspelled version of "Space Seed"'s dark-haired Joaquin (Mark Tobin).

Judson Scott is one of these people, and has been since the '80s. He even insists that Joachim, which Ricardo Montalban pronounced onscreen as "YO-uh-KEEM", is pronounced "wah-KEEM". Or at least he did when he was at the Denver Star Trek convention last.

I heard him pronounce it as "KEEN" with a really subtle "n", like some European languages do when "n" is at the end of a word.

 

[mos6507]

The blonde thing, and probably the youth thing, was in order to evoke images of the Hitler youth. I agree that it clashed with continuity and is one of the biggest issues with Khan.

 

[scotpens]

. . . "Life form" has been applied inconsistently in Star Trek. Often it is used in unqualified form to mean a sentient, if not humanoid, life form. Kirk and Spock stand in a grassy meadow, and Spock says, "Scans show no life forms on this planet, Captain."

Sometimes they got it right and said something like "no animal life", except just don't pay any attention to the entomophilous species.

Well, I just learned a new word today.

The dictionary entry has the notation "compare zoophilic." That sounds like something you could get arrested for.

 

[Timewalker]

The blonde thing, and probably the youth thing, was in order to evoke images of the Hitler youth. I agree that it clashed with continuity and is one of the biggest issues with Khan.

Say what? The ST II-IV trilogy came out around the time we discovered that Central Alberta (the region of Canada where I live) was infested with Holocaust deniers, one of whom was peddling his opinions as indisputable facts to a captive audience - his high school social studies students, who were compelled to parrot this crap back to him in their essays and term papers, or else receive a failing grade (this "teacher" was eventually fired, put on trial, and lost his teaching license - public Holocaust denial is classed as hate speech in Canada and is illegal).

In spite of that, and other equally horrible people around here, the "blond characters in TWOK = Hitler Youth Movement" never crossed my mind even once.

 

[mos6507]

The whole idea of augments in general is a social commentary on the Nazis and the notion of aryan superiority and their nascent eugenics movement. This was true in the original Space Seed even though the augments shown were not universally blonde. Certainly the casting choices to skew young, beautiful, and blonde, was the team at that time desiring to drive the point home a little too overtly, especially considering that Khan himself was not a germanic type.

I don't dispute that holocaust deniers have been around, but this is kind of a side-issue to whether the general public accepted the idea that the Nazi's believed in a master-race and in eugenics. I don't think there's ever been much debate about that, even among holocaust deniers, who are usually white supremacists who believe exactly that.

A few years after Khan, you had the Bond film "A View to a Kill" in which Christopher Walken had his hair dyed blonde (he looked a lot like Bowie at a time, who they preferred to cast) as an ex-Hitler youth bent on world domination not unlike Khan in a way.

 

[Shawnster]

Too bad about V. But I preferred Judson Scott as Bennu in "Phoenix." (that was a Really Short Series!)

I remember him from Phoenix, but not V. And I watched both series.

 

[Timo]

The idea that eugenics aims at creating tall blonde blue-eyes is obvious enough. But both "Space Seed" and ST2 did their damnedest to portray the Augments as a bunch of individualistic leaders, not mindless followers; ST2 even had them make fun of the concept of uniform, by accessorizing their rags with Starfleet jackets and whatnot.

Not Hitler Jugend then, not by a long shot. Evil, ruthless supermen, yes. But not a well-organized movement of them. Religious cults probably hit closer to home for the audiences of both the 1980s and the 2010s, with their brainwashing of children and the two-level organizations of one Exalted Leader and lots of worthless followers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timewalker]

The idea that eugenics aims at creating tall blonde blue-eyes is obvious enough. But both "Space Seed" and ST2 did their damnedest to portray the Augments as a bunch of individualistic leaders, not mindless followers; ST2 even had them make fun of the concept of uniform, by accessorizing their rags with Starfleet jackets and whatnot.

If you'd been living like Khan's people for all that time (obviously not one of them was intelligent enough to figure out how to sew), wouldn't you grab the chance to add something to your wardrobe? The jackets were practical, as well as "trophies", and the insignia wouldn't have meant much more to the younger ones than a different kind of ornament.

 

[scotpens]

The use of the term "augments" to describe Khan and his followers is obviously a retcon, since it was never used in "Space Seed" or TWOK. Forgive my ignorance, but when was that word actually first used in Trek?

 

[DonIago]

First used in ENT during, fittingly enough, the Augments trilogy of episodes.

 

[Timo]

Then again, most things relating to Khan are retcons, including those from "Space Seed" already. That episode rewrote the prehistory of Star Trek, introducing the Eugenics Wars, the sublight starships and suspended animation. Adding a specific name for the selectively bred, oops, genetically engineered supermen is just an addition rather than a contradiction, just like the three things mentioned above, and in fact affects our perception of the supermen much less than those three things affected our perception of the world that had launched the Valiant.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Greg Cox]

I gotta admit, I wish the word "Augments" had been coined before I wrote my Khan books. Would have been convenient to have a nice shorthand term for genetically-engineered superhumans.

(And Timo is right; even the idea that Khan and his followers were genetically-engineered is something of a retcon. "Space Seed" only mentions selective breeding.)

 

[scotpens]

. . . (And Timo is right; even the idea that Khan and his followers were genetically-engineered is something of a retcon. "Space Seed" only mentions selective breeding.)

Naturally, since genetic modification as we understand it has only been a reality since the 1980s. Traditional "positive eugenics" (selective breeding) is a comparatively slow and inefficient way of creating a race of superhumans.

 

[Shawnster]

Then again, most things relating to Khan are retcons, including those from "Space Seed" already. That episode rewrote the prehistory of Star Trek, introducing the Eugenics Wars, the sublight starships and suspended animation. Adding a specific name for the selectively bred, oops, genetically engineered supermen is just an addition rather than a contradiction, just like the three things mentioned above, and in fact affects our perception of the supermen much less than those three things affected our perception of the world that had launched the Valiant.

Timo Saloniemi

I gotta disagree. Or I just don't understand. What did Space Seed retcon?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Khan's followers in the movie look a lot older than 15 to me...

They are "hyper-aged", much like how Klingon kids grow to maturity so quickly (ie. Alexander in TNG and DS9).

Too bad about V. But I preferred Judson Scott as Bennu in "Phoenix." (that was a Really Short Series!)

Lt James was in the last six or so episodes of "V: The Series" and, as mentioned, was slated to become a more important character if they'd been renewed for Season Two.

As for "The Phoenix", that's how come Judson Scott has no credit in ST II. His agent pushed for a credit in the opening titles, because "The Phoenix" episodes had yet to air but were anticipated to make Judson a big name. Eventually, Judson was encouraged to "waive billing", which he assumed meant they'd lost the battle for opening credits positioning - but he was horrified, on opening night, to realize that it meant no credit at all.

 

[Timewalker]

. . . (And Timo is right; even the idea that Khan and his followers were genetically-engineered is something of a retcon. "Space Seed" only mentions selective breeding.)

Naturally, since genetic modification as we understand it has only been a reality since the 1980s. Traditional "positive eugenics" (selective breeding) is a comparatively slow and inefficient way of creating a race of superhumans.

Genetic engineering is a fancier term for what humans have been doing ever since they discovered how to manipulate food plants (ie. thousands of years). Selective breeding is just another name for it, as well. No retcon there.

 

[MarsWeeps]

(And Timo is right; even the idea that Khan and his followers were genetically-engineered is something of a retcon. "Space Seed" only mentions selective breeding.)

Well, Kirk does mention "controlled genetics."

KIRK: I'd like those answers now. First, the purpose of your star flight.
KHAN: A new life, a chance to build a world. Other things I doubt you would understand.
KIRK: Why? Because I'm not a product of controlled genetics?