when did TOS take place, 23rd century or 22nd century

[MAGolding]

^There have been stories about mad scientists altering human genetics since The Island of Dr. Moreau at the very least. Just because they didn't actually have recombinant DNA before the '70s doesn't mean they couldn't speculate about imaginary alternative methods.

As I recall, the H.G. Wells novel (and Charles Laughton movie) simply had Moreau using vivisection to evolve his manimals. I don't think there was any mention of genetics until the Burt Lancaster movie adaptation in the seventies.

Okay, but I remember reading some story from the 1930s or '40s in which some sort of biological mutation was being performed. The basic principles of genetics and selective breeding were worked out by Gregor Mendel in the mid-1800s, and as I mentioned, the first groups that advocated using eugenic principles to breed a "superior" form of humanity arose only a few decades later.

The term "genetic engineering" was first used in science fiction in Jack Williamson's 1951 novel Dragon's Island, about the creation of a race of genetic supermen not unlike those in "Space Seed," and he's often given credit for coining the term, but it was around in science a couple of years before that. From the Biology in Science Fiction blog:

https://blog.sciencefictionbiology.com/2009/04/did-science-fiction-invent-genetic.html

As I remember, a number of old science fiction stories had people and other lifeforms that were more or less artificially improved or the reverse by advanced biological science. For example, Theodore Sturgeon's "The Golden Helix" (1954). http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41365

I believe that the first discussion about how that might possibly be accomplished was a science fact article, probably in Worlds of Tomorrow magazine about 1965 or so. I think that it speculated that viruses might be used to bring modified genes into every cell in an organism and replace the original genes with modified ones.

 

[Defiler-Of-Redshirts]

According to Star Trek II, the TOS movies take place in the 2280's. In Star Trek II Kirk looked at the bottle of Romulan ale McCoy brought him for his birthday and says, "2283?" and McCoy says "it takes the stuff awhile to ferment." Ergo, Star Trek II takes place sometime after 2283.

 

[Christopher]

According to Star Trek II, the TOS movies take place in the 2280's. In Star Trek II Kirk looked at the bottle of Romulan ale McCoy brought him for his birthday and says, "2283?" and McCoy says "it takes the stuff awhile to ferment." Ergo, Star Trek II takes place sometime after 2283.

That's the modern interpretation, but that wasn't universally accepted at the time (since the leading fan/tie-in dating scheme put the movies about 60 years earlier than that). For all we knew, "2283" could've been a stardate or a year in the Romulan calendar.

 

[Henoch]

Select breeding was a tremendous success during the 1800's, but in selective dog breeding. Most of the "pure" breeds we have today originated during this period. If it works on dogs...

 

[gottacook]

I remember reading some story from the 1930s or '40s in which some sort of biological mutation was being performed.

Perhaps you're thinking of Robert Heinlein's Beyond This Horizon, published in magazine serial form in 1942 and somewhat revised after the war.

"Easy times for individuals are bad times for the race. Adversity is a strainer which refuses to pass the ill-equipped. But we have no adversity nowadays. To keep the race as strong as it is and to make it stronger requires careful planning. The genetic technician eliminates in the laboratory the strains which formerly were eliminated by simple natural selection.”

“But how do you know that the things you select for are actually survival factors? I’ve had my doubts about a lot of them.”

“Ah! There’s the rub. You know the history of the First Genetic War.”​

And it goes from there into a history of the Genetic Wars and their outcome... As David Brin (http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2015/01/robert-heinlein-and-looking-beyond-this.html) puts it,

The resulting child, while “best” in many ways (free of any disease genes, etc), will still be one that the couple might have had naturally. Gradual human improvement, without any of the outrageously hubristic meddling that wise people rightfully fear. (No fashionable feathers or lizard tails, just kids who are the healthiest and smartest and strongest the parents might have had, anyway.)​

 

[Christopher]

^No, I don't think it was Heinlein. Anyway, that just reinforces the point -- that there was plenty of fiction about this stuff decades before "Space Seed," and it didn't all assume that the tech was far in the future. So there's nothing surprising about Carey Wilber and Gene Coon assuming that eugenic supermen could be adults as little as 25 years in their future. Especially if they intended it as an SF extrapolation of the real eugenics attempts that had been around as early as the 1880s and proliferated in the 1930s.

 

[MAGolding]

According to Star Trek II, the TOS movies take place in the 2280's. In Star Trek II Kirk looked at the bottle of Romulan ale McCoy brought him for his birthday and says, "2283?" and McCoy says "it takes the stuff awhile to ferment." Ergo, Star Trek II takes place sometime after 2283.

Here is the dialog:

KIRK: Romulan Ale! Why, Bones, you know this is illegal.
McCOY: I only use it for medicinal purposes. I got aboard a ship that brings me in a case every now and then across the Neutral Zone. Now don't be a prig.
KIRK: Twenty-two, eighty-three.
McCOY: Yeah well it takes this stuff a while to ferment. Here now, gimme. ...Now you open this one.

Kirk simply recites a number he presumably reads off of the bottle. It seems likely that he is reading a date or some sort of time indication. Kirk just says the number, he doesn't say whether it is a stardate, an Earth year, or a Romulan year. And if Kirk says an Earth year, he doesn't say what calendar is used. There have been many different calendars used on Earth and the years have been counted from many different events in Earth history. A year number without any identification of when it is counted from is not very precise.

Furthermore, there is no specification of whether the number 2283 refers to the past time when the Romulan Ale was bottled, or to the future time when it will be done fermenting and be ready to drink, or to the future time when it will no longer be good to drink and should be disposed of.

Thus this dialog is not as informative of the currant Earth date as some persons think.

 

[Gabriel]

well since all the other series say Tos happen in the 2200 and mid to late to be more precise. I tend to believe thy are right. majority rules. I'm a fan of democracy so it kinda influences my thinking. now sure they are other theories like each stress is its own universe and other things like that but in the end CBS says it happen in the 23rd century. and since they own Star Trek, well I think they are the final authority on that. now I think it fits since the constitution class seems too advance for the 2100's and plus if los happen in the 2100 and TNG happen in the 2300's they leaves a big hole and TOS characters appear in TNG. and I doubt Spock would be very active at the age of 238( he was trying to get a regime change on Romulus and that would be a very active thing). I got that if to was in the 2100 then spock would have been born in 2130 and TNG's unification was in 2368. which is possible but since Spock is half Vulcan and half human im sure that would effect his lifespan.

 

[cooleddie74]

Plus flying cars. Where is my flying car?[/QUOTE

Ask Randal Graves.

 

[Defiler-Of-Redshirts]

But the first six movies being in the 2280s makes sense in the context of the entire Trek timeline, with the other series. TNG takes place roughly 80 years after the movies and we know its time started in the 2360s (at least according to IMDB).

In the TNG episode "Relics" Scotty was 147 years old, which would mean he was somewhere in his sixties when the TOS movies ended and he retired. So that also works out.

 

[johnnybear]

Yeah the 2283 line is confusing! So are Kirk and Bones in 2283 themselves or in say 2285 or 88? I've read that the trilogy of films is supposed to be 15 years after TMP which was set in 2271 which would be sort of right but i've never accepted that dating. What have they been doing for the past decade and a half anyway?
JB

 

[Mytran]

Not sure about 15 years after TMP but both Kirk and Khan repeat the line about it being 15 years since they last met. Most assume this means the events of Space Seed but I've read at least one chronology which postulates a second brief trip to CA5 where Kirk dropped off additional building supplies for the colony, accompanied by Mr Chekov (to close off that plot hole).

So, TWOK is definitely 15 years after something

 

[Gabriel]

Yeah the 2283 line is confusing! So are Kirk and Bones in 2283 themselves or in say 2285 or 88? I've read that the trilogy of films is supposed to be 15 years after TMP which was set in 2271 which would be sort of right but i've never accepted that dating. What have they been doing for the past decade and a half anyway?
JB

Fanon says that Kirk took another five year mission and then went on to starfleet Academy

 

[BK613]

Not sure about 15 years after TMP but both Kirk and Khan repeat the line about it being 15 years since they last met. Most assume this means the events of Space Seed but I've read at least one chronology which postulates a second brief trip to CA5 where Kirk dropped off additional building supplies for the colony, accompanied by Mr Chekov (to close off that plot hole).

So, TWOK is definitely 15 years after something

You would have to shoe-horn that second visit into the six-months before CA6 exploded.
Khan: Ceti Alpha Six exploded six months after we were left here.....Admiral Kirk never bothered to check on our progress.
(granted, how long is a CA5 month but I would expect use of a standard UFP calendar until you work out the CA5 one.)

 

[Mytran]

You would have to shoe-horn that second visit into the six-months before CA6 exploded.
Khan: Ceti Alpha Six exploded six months after we were left here.....Admiral Kirk never bothered to check on our progress.
(granted, how long is a CA5 month but I would expect use of a standard UFP calendar until you work out the CA5 one.)

In that interpretation, the 6 months would be after Kirk left (i.e. abandoned) them there the second time. Since Kirk came back after delivering them there after Space Seed, Khan would not consider that in the same light.

 

[BK613]

In that interpretation, the 6 months would be after Kirk left (i.e. abandoned) them there the second time. Since Kirk came back after delivering them there after Space Seed, Khan would not consider that in the same light.

That's a stretch but I have no real issue with it.

 

[cooleddie74]

TMP: 2273
TWOK, TSFS: 2285
TVH: 2286
TFF: 2287
TUC, the Beginning of GEN: 2293

 

[Mytran]

That's a stretch but I have no real issue with it.

It's not a theory I'm totally wedded to, but it provides interesting food for thought!

 

[MAGolding]

Not sure about 15 years after TMP but both Kirk and Khan repeat the line about it being 15 years since they last met. Most assume this means the events of Space Seed but I've read at least one chronology which postulates a second brief trip to CA5 where Kirk dropped off additional building supplies for the colony, accompanied by Mr Chekov (to close off that plot hole).

So, TWOK is definitely 15 years after something

You would have to shoe-horn that second visit into the six-months before CA6 exploded.
Khan: Ceti Alpha Six exploded six months after we were left here.....Admiral Kirk never bothered to check on our progress.
(granted, how long is a CA5 month but I would expect use of a standard UFP calendar until you work out the CA5 one.)

In that interpretation, the 6 months would be after Kirk left (i.e. abandoned) them there the second time. Since Kirk came back after delivering them there after Space Seed, Khan would not consider that in the same light.

That's a stretch but I have no real issue with it.

It's not a theory I'm totally wedded to, but it provides interesting food for thought!

There is another bit of evidence that supports that theory.

In the first season episode "Balance of Terror", stardates from 1709.2 to 1709.6:

SPOCK: Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the moving position of our vessel, a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.

[Sickbay]

SPOCK [OC]: As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought,

[Engineering]

SPOCK [OC]: By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels

[Bridge]

SPOCK: Which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time. Captain.

And when Spock gets a visual image of the Romulan control room:

SPOCK: I have a fix on it, Captain. I believe I can lock on it, get a picture of their Bridge.
KIRK: Put it on the screen.
(Up shimmers an image of a group of four humanoids around a console. One leaves his post and salutes the figure with his back to us. That figure then turns, and we see someone who looks just like - a Vulcan. Both Spock's eyebrows hit the ceiling. There's a long silence and a lot of stares.) KIRK: Decoding?

No one knew what Romulans looked like, and so everyone is surprised to see that Romulans look like Vulcans.

"Space seed" is also in the first season, and has stardates from 3141.9 to 3143.3. At the end Kirk offers Khan and McGivers the chance to settle on Ceti Alpha V - apparently Kirk thinks the other 72 supermen don't deserve a chance to decide for themselves.

In Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan, about stardate 8130.4:

KHAN: You are in a position to demand nothing, sir. I, on the other hand, am in a position to grant ...nothing. What you see is all that remains of the ship's company and crew of the Botany Bay, marooned here fifteen years ago by Captain James T. Kirk.

And:

KIRK: There's a man out there I haven't seen in fifteen years who's trying to kill me. You show me a son that'd be happy to help him. My son. ...My life that could have been, ...and wasn't. And what am I feeling? ...Old. ...

So Kirk and Khan both think that they haven't seen each other for fifteen years. So Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan should be 15 years after the last meeting of Kirk and Khan, which should have been either soon after "Space Seed" ended or else during any hypothetical second visit of Kirk to Ceti Alpha V that might have happened.

The next three movies all seemed to happen within a period of less than one year. And in the last of of those movies, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, a new Romulan representative arrives on Nimbus III, the Planet of Galactic Peace:

CAITHLIN: Gentlemen, I'm Caithlin Dar.
TALBOT: Ah, yes. Our new Romulan representative. Welcome to Paradise City, my dear, capital of the so-called 'Planet of Galactic Peace.' I'm St. John Talbot, the Federation representative here on Nimbus Three and my charming companion, here, is the Klingon consul Korrd.
KORRD: Ugghhhh!
CAITHLIN: I expect that's Klingon for hello.
TALBOT (OC): Won't you come in, my dear?
(Sybok and his followers approach Paradise City)
CAITHLIN: Twenty years ago, our three governments agreed to develop this planet together. A new age was born.
TALBOT: Our new age died a quick death. And the settlers we conned into coming here, they were the dregs of the galaxy. They immediately took to fighting amongst themselves. We forbad them weapons, but they soon began to fashion their own.
CAITHLIN: Right! Then it appears I've arrived just in time.

It sees logical to assume that the treaty establishing Nimbus III must have been signed after "Balance of Terror". And it seems certain that settlers would have begun to arrive on Nimbus III after "Balance of Terror", because any subjects of the Romulan empire who settled there would probably soon describe what Romulans looked like to people who asked them.

Even thought the fictional time span between Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan and Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was less than one year, they were released five years apart, in 1982 and 1989 respectively. Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan was filmed in 1981, about 15 years after first season episodes like "Balance of Terror" and "Space Seed" were filmed, and Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was filmed in 1988, about 22 years after first season episodes were filmed.

So the makers of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier might have assumed that since it was filmed 22 years after first season episodes were filmed, it should have a fictional date 22 years after the fictional date of the first season episodes. And I can't help thinking that it was really amateurish of them not to count the fictional time instead, and realize that Star Trek V: The Final Frontier should be no more than 16 years after "Space Seed" in fictional time.

One possible solution would be that Caitlin Dar was using Romulan years in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier and they were shorter than the years used by Kirk and Khan in Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan so that 20 of Dar's years equaled about 15 of Kirk and Khan's years.

And another possibility is that Kirk, Khan, and Dar used years of the same length. In that case Nimbus III would have been established sometime after "Balance of Terror", and possibly before "Space Seed". Kirk would have visited Ceti Alpha V a second time at least 5 years after Nimbus III was established. Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan would have happened 15 years after Kirk's last visit to Ceti Alpha V and 20 years after Nimbus III was established and even longer after "Balance of Terror". And Star Trek V: The Final Frontier would happen less than a year after Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan.

So if Kirk and Chekov made a second visit to Ceti Alpha V about 5 years after "Space seed", that would explain why the four Star Trek movies in the 1980s could happen less than one fictional year apart and both 15 years after Kirk & Khan last saw each other and 20 years after Nimbus III was established.

 

[cooleddie74]

15 years on Ceti Alpha V = 18 on Earth and aboard the Enterprise. More or less.