when did TOS take place, 23rd century or 22nd century
- Thread starter Gabriel
- Start date
That’s a good point. Well I made this thread when I was still kinda new so i never thought about that. Sorry. But the question was to use all available info, so I guess that means the retroactive continuity applies. Because if it was a stand alone series I would believe it took place in the 22nd century. But in the end it doesn’t really Change anything because cbs is probably not going to change the time period for people. Though I have enjoyed the debate.
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That reasoning explains why I voted the way i did.
Ohh, wait which way did you vote.
This part is for everyone
Also I open up the poll again so that what if new people want they can vote and I put the retcon thing in the opening post
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Even if we were using that standard, then if you include materials contemporary with the show, the 23rd century was first mentioned as the setting in James Blish's "Space Seed" adaptation (despite including the "200 years from the 1990s" dialogue) and in The Making of Star Trek, both published in 1968. The latter in particular suggests that the producers had settled on that time frame by the end of the second season, despite the conflicting references in the first.
As far as in-show evidence goes, we have "Metamorphosis," which establishes that Zefram Cochrane disappeared as an 87-year-old man 150 years before the episode. He's called "Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri" even though he's otherwise consistently portrayed as an Earth human, implying what was stated explicitly in the episode's story outline, that Cochrane led the first colony expedition to Alpha Centauri. That suggests warp ships became viable while Cochrane was still young and robust enough to lead such an expedition, so say he was no more than late 30s, which would put the warp breakthrough roughly 200 years before the episode. This is consistent with "Where No Man Has Gone Before," which put the Valiant's interstellar expedition 200 years before the episode. Now, "Space Seed" established that cryogenic sleeper ships were used until faster methods were devised in 2018, so that would pretty much rule out warp drive being invented before then. Based on these, the earliest possible time frame for TOS, based strictly on in-show evidence, would be the late 2210s.
Note that the "200 years" reference in "Space Seed" is explicitly estimated, not exact; 220 years after 1996 could still work. And the "200 years" line in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" is clearly a joke. The only other data point that suggests the 22nd century is "Plato's Stepchildren," which says that Platonius was founded 2500 years before. If we assume they're even using Earth years, then 2500 years after Plato's life would be about 2150 at the latest. But there's no telling how long after Plato's life the Sahndarans founded Platonius. It could easily have been decades after he died.
There's also the odd case of "Miri," in which the Earth-duplicate planet was at a 1960s tech level 300 years before the episode. If we assume the intention was that the planet paralleled Earth exactly, even down to chronology, that suggests a 2260s time frame for TOS.
There are other data points.
From The Savage Curtain:
SCOTT: Lincoln died three centuries ago on a planet hundreds of light years away.
1865 + 300 = 2165
From Requiem for Methuselah:
SPOCK: ...... For one thing, extreme age is indicated on the order of six thousand years.
and
SPOCK: You were born?
FLINT: In that region of earth later called Mesopotamia, in the year 3834 BC, as the millennia are reckoned.
-3834 + 6000 = 2166
From The Savage Curtain:
SCOTT: Lincoln died three centuries ago on a planet hundreds of light years away.
1865 + 300 = 2165
From Requiem for Methuselah:
SPOCK: ...... For one thing, extreme age is indicated on the order of six thousand years.
and
SPOCK: You were born?
FLINT: In that region of earth later called Mesopotamia, in the year 3834 BC, as the millennia are reckoned.
-3834 + 6000 = 2166
Right but tos dialogue isn’t always reliable.
Obviously, since they were making it up as they went. I'm merely engaging with the hypothetical Kor offered for the sake of argument, in order to prove that, even if you ignore all post-TOS sources, you can still rule out a 22nd-century setting.
After all, back before TNG premiered, there were two main schools of thought in fandom about when TOS happened -- the 2200s (i.e. the first decade of the 23rd century), as proposed in 1979's Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology, and the 2260s, as proposed in 1980's Star Trek Maps. There were two conflicting theories (until "The Neutral Zone" locked in the dates once and for all), but nobody doubted that TOS was in the 23rd century, because The Making of Star Trek said so and it was basically the bible for fans back then. Also because TMP and TWOK said so, following TMoST's precedent, no doubt. There may have been a few fans and writers who posited a late 22nd-century setting, but they were always a minority.
There are other 1968 sources to consider. "To Make a Star Trek" G. Harry Stein, Analog, February 1968, might have mentioned the fictional date of TOS. G. Harry Stein also wrote the Star Trek novel An Abode of Life (1982) under the name of Lee Correy. The early fanzine Star Trek: An Analysis of a Phenomenon in Science Fiction (1968) has the earlies fan chronology I know of.
If "Metamorphosis" is 150 years - meaning between 125 and 175 years - after Cochrane was 87, it is 212 to 262 years after Cochrane was born. If Cochrane was 20 to 40 years old when he "discovered the space warp" that discovery should have been 172 to 242 years before "Metamorphosis". If the discovery of the space warp was in or after 2018 in the "Space Seed" calendar "Metamorphosis" will be in or after 2190 to 2260 SS. If the Valiant must have been launched after 2018 SS and 200 years before "Where No Man Has Gone Before", "Where No Man Has Gone Before" must be in or after 2218 in the "Space Seed" calendar.:
And yet some people want to use dialogue from yesterday is tomorrow, space seed, and the savage curtains to prove the point that it is in 22nd century. I’m just glad you found more in tos evidence to prove that it took place 23rd century because I thought I would only be able to prove though retcons and those aren’t exactly great arguments.
Also I just find the constitution just to advance for the 22nd century. I mean if Cochrane had the first warp flight in 2063 then it would only be about a century of warp flight by kirks time. Maybe it’s just be but that doesn’t seem like enough time.
1982 and 1989 are seven years apart, not five.
How is it amateurish of them if the Trek timeline hadn't been explicitly nailed down at that point? STV was shot in 1988 and released in 1989. The first edition of The Star Trek Chronology was published on April 1st, 1993. In the absence of any other information, assuming it was more or less the same time gap for the characters that had been for the actors was a natural assumption.
Doesn't work. Both Kirk and Khan say that it's been 15 years. Khan was obviously tracking the time in Earth years.
That kills all the drama of the line. "5000 stardates" means absolutely nothing to the average moviegoer. "15 years" is easily understood by everyone.
That's how I take it now. Occam's Razor.
Again, a nice, simple explanation. There was time when Khan was aboard ship in "Space Seed" that we explicitly didn't see. Khan apparently had some encounter with Chekov during that offscreen time.
I like the engineering explanation. Nice and simple, and even suggests a neat story about what first brought Chekov to Captain Kirk's attention. As I recall, Greg Cox had Chekov be a part of the security detail that escorted Khan's people to Ceti Alpha V, which I also thought was a simple, elegant solution. I don't recall him referencing the engineering backstory, though.
His name was G. Harry Stine, and his Trek novel was The Abode of Life.
I'd be surprised if Stine's article mentioned a specific date. Anyway, it looks like you could find a used copy on Amazon or the like if you wanted to make sure.
I think those error bars are too wide. Spock agreed with the 150-year date, not just Kirk and McCoy, so it was probably pretty much exact.
When you're dealing with numbers in the order of millennia, a mere century either side of 6,000 years is a trifling thing
Also, "on the order of" means approximately, in the general vicinity of. The whole point of using the phrase is to specify that it is not an exact figure.
That they (TPTB) picked a specific date and a time span that just happened to put it two hundred years in the future, 1960s wise, seems a helluva coincidence then.
Or somebody did the math.
Besides, it's Spock, so "it was probably pretty much exact".
Yeah that would still make Spock pretty old by TNG. Well I guess it’s possible not probable but it is possible
The TWOK writers even when out of their way to reinforce the time period confusion from Space Seed.
From TWOK (both from the same speech):
From TWOK (both from the same speech):
KHAN: Captain! Captain! Save your strength. These people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born. Do you mean he never told you the tale? To amuse your Captain? No? Never told you how the Enterprise picked up the Botany Bay, lost in space in the year nineteen hundred and ninety-six, myself and the ship's company in cryogenic freeze?
[and the famous line a few seconds later...]
KHAN: This is Ceti Alpha Five. ...Ceti Alpha Six exploded six months after we were left here. The shock shifted the orbit of this planet and everything was laid waste. Admiral Kirk ...never bothered to check on our progress. It was only the fact of my genetically engineered intellect that enabled us to survive! On Earth, ...two hundred years ago, ...I was a prince, ...with power over millions.
Paul Winfield (22 May 1939) played Captain Terrell; he was 42 during filming, so, TWOK is greater than ~1996 + 242+ = ~2238+ (definitely the 23rd Century), or based on Khan's second rant, around ~1996 + (~200 + ?) = ~2196+ (very, very late 22nd Century to 23rd Century). By now, Khan might be going senile, but year 2285 is 289 years after 1996 which fits on the high-side of the above date possibilities.[and the famous line a few seconds later...]
KHAN: This is Ceti Alpha Five. ...Ceti Alpha Six exploded six months after we were left here. The shock shifted the orbit of this planet and everything was laid waste. Admiral Kirk ...never bothered to check on our progress. It was only the fact of my genetically engineered intellect that enabled us to survive! On Earth, ...two hundred years ago, ...I was a prince, ...with power over millions.
Oops! My mistake.
SHORT ANSWER:
JonnyQuest037 is wrong about the fictional time between those moves. The dates that were later arbitrarily assigned to the Star Trek movies of the 1980s by the Star Trek Chronology weren't needed to get a good idea of the fictional time elapsed between those movies. There was no absence of information.
LONG ANSWER:
In Star trek II: The Wrath of Khan the Enterprise is taking cadets and trainees on a training cruise:
At the end:
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock begins with:
Some of the trainees are still aboard as they approach Spacedock & Earth:
They return Spock to Vulcan at the end and Spock's body and katra are newly reunited in the very last scene.
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home begins with the Saratoga meeting the whale probe and then Kirk's log entry:
"In the third month" means between two and three months after their Vulcan exile began. Seemingly just a few days later the protagonists crash near San Francisco and release the whales.
After an unknown duration of time there is the trial and the Federation council makes a decision:
After another unknown period of time Kirk and Co. approach their new assignment:
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier Opens with scenes on Nimbus III and at Yosemite on Earth, and then switches to the Enterprise in orbit:
That sure sounds like Scott has been trying to repair the Enterprise since it got back from the shakedown cruise at the end of the previous movie.
So this indicates that it has probably been only about three weeks since they returned from the voyage at the end of the previous movie. And considering how many problems the new Enterprise has, that voyage should have been rather short.
Even allowing for the two time periods of unknown length during Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, it seems obvious that the four movies from Star trek II: The Wrath of Khan to Star Trek V: The Final Frontier happen in far less than one Earth year.
It seems to me that by 1988 it would have been easy for scriptwriters to play videotapes of the earlier three movies to remind themselves of various plot points, and obvious that William Shatner and Harve Bennett would have had a lot of experience making those three previous movies and could have remembered plot details.
Thus they should have noticed that Dar's "twenty years" doesn't agree with the length of fictional time elapsed since the first season of TOS, as I stated in my post number 599 on page 30 of this thread.
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