when did TOS take place, 23rd century or 22nd century

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Gabriel, Jan 15, 2019.

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What century did TOS take place

Poll closed Feb 2, 2019.
  1. 23rd century

    93.9%
  2. 22nd century

    6.1%
  1. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    As I remember, a number of old science fiction stories had people and other lifeforms that were more or less artificially improved or the reverse by advanced biological science. For example, Theodore Sturgeon's "The Golden Helix" (1954). http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41365

    I believe that the first discussion about how that might possibly be accomplished was a science fact article, probably in Worlds of Tomorrow magazine about 1965 or so. I think that it speculated that viruses might be used to bring modified genes into every cell in an organism and replace the original genes with modified ones.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 12:48 AM
  2. Defiler-Of-Redshirts

    Defiler-Of-Redshirts Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    According to Star Trek II, the TOS movies take place in the 2280's. In Star Trek II Kirk looked at the bottle of Romulan ale McCoy brought him for his birthday and says, "2283?" and McCoy says "it takes the stuff awhile to ferment." Ergo, Star Trek II takes place sometime after 2283.
     
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  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    That's the modern interpretation, but that wasn't universally accepted at the time (since the leading fan/tie-in dating scheme put the movies about 60 years earlier than that). For all we knew, "2283" could've been a stardate or a year in the Romulan calendar.
     
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  4. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Select breeding was a tremendous success during the 1800's, but in selective dog breeding. Most of the "pure" breeds we have today originated during this period. If it works on dogs...
     
  5. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    Perhaps you're thinking of Robert Heinlein's Beyond This Horizon, published in magazine serial form in 1942 and somewhat revised after the war.

    "Easy times for individuals are bad times for the race. Adversity is a strainer which refuses to pass the ill-equipped. But we have no adversity nowadays. To keep the race as strong as it is and to make it stronger requires careful planning. The genetic technician eliminates in the laboratory the strains which formerly were eliminated by simple natural selection.”

    “But how do you know that the things you select for are actually survival factors? I’ve had my doubts about a lot of them.”

    “Ah! There’s the rub. You know the history of the First Genetic War.”​

    And it goes from there into a history of the Genetic Wars and their outcome... As David Brin (http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2015/01/robert-heinlein-and-looking-beyond-this.html) puts it,

    The resulting child, while “best” in many ways (free of any disease genes, etc), will still be one that the couple might have had naturally. Gradual human improvement, without any of the outrageously hubristic meddling that wise people rightfully fear. (No fashionable feathers or lizard tails, just kids who are the healthiest and smartest and strongest the parents might have had, anyway.)​
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 12:52 AM
  6. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^No, I don't think it was Heinlein. Anyway, that just reinforces the point -- that there was plenty of fiction about this stuff decades before "Space Seed," and it didn't all assume that the tech was far in the future. So there's nothing surprising about Carey Wilber and Gene Coon assuming that eugenic supermen could be adults as little as 25 years in their future. Especially if they intended it as an SF extrapolation of the real eugenics attempts that had been around as early as the 1880s and proliferated in the 1930s.
     
  7. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    Here is the dialog:

    Kirk simply recites a number he presumably reads off of the bottle. It seems likely that he is reading a date or some sort of time indication. Kirk just says the number, he doesn't say whether it is a stardate, an Earth year, or a Romulan year. And if Kirk says an Earth year, he doesn't say what calendar is used. There have been many different calendars used on Earth and the years have been counted from many different events in Earth history. A year number without any identification of when it is counted from is not very precise.

    Furthermore, there is no specification of whether the number 2283 refers to the past time when the Romulan Ale was bottled, or to the future time when it will be done fermenting and be ready to drink, or to the future time when it will no longer be good to drink and should be disposed of.

    Thus this dialog is not as informative of the currant Earth date as some persons think.
     
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  8. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

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    well since all the other series say Tos happen in the 2200 and mid to late to be more precise. I tend to believe thy are right. majority rules. I'm a fan of democracy so it kinda influences my thinking. now sure they are other theories like each stress is its own universe and other things like that but in the end CBS says it happen in the 23rd century. and since they own Star Trek, well I think they are the final authority on that. now I think it fits since the constitution class seems too advance for the 2100's and plus if los happen in the 2100 and TNG happen in the 2300's they leaves a big hole and TOS characters appear in TNG. and I doubt Spock would be very active at the age of 238( he was trying to get a regime change on Romulus and that would be a very active thing). I got that if to was in the 2100 then spock would have been born in 2130 and TNG's unification was in 2368. which is possible but since Spock is half Vulcan and half human im sure that would effect his lifespan.
     
  9. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  10. Defiler-Of-Redshirts

    Defiler-Of-Redshirts Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    But the first six movies being in the 2280s makes sense in the context of the entire Trek timeline, with the other series. TNG takes place roughly 80 years after the movies and we know its time started in the 2360s (at least according to IMDB).

    In the TNG episode "Relics" Scotty was 147 years old, which would mean he was somewhere in his sixties when the TOS movies ended and he retired. So that also works out.
     
  11. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah the 2283 line is confusing! So are Kirk and Bones in 2283 themselves or in say 2285 or 88? I've read that the trilogy of films is supposed to be 15 years after TMP which was set in 2271 which would be sort of right but i've never accepted that dating. What have they been doing for the past decade and a half anyway?
    JB
     
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  12. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not sure about 15 years after TMP but both Kirk and Khan repeat the line about it being 15 years since they last met. Most assume this means the events of Space Seed but I've read at least one chronology which postulates a second brief trip to CA5 where Kirk dropped off additional building supplies for the colony, accompanied by Mr Chekov (to close off that plot hole).

    So, TWOK is definitely 15 years after something ;)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 2:21 PM
  13. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

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    Fanon says that Kirk took another five year mission and then went on to starfleet Academy
     
  14. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You would have to shoe-horn that second visit into the six-months before CA6 exploded.
    Khan: Ceti Alpha Six exploded six months after we were left here.....Admiral Kirk never bothered to check on our progress.
    (granted, how long is a CA5 month but I would expect use of a standard UFP calendar until you work out the CA5 one.)
     
  15. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In that interpretation, the 6 months would be after Kirk left (i.e. abandoned) them there the second time. Since Kirk came back after delivering them there after Space Seed, Khan would not consider that in the same light.
     
  16. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's a stretch but I have no real issue with it.
     
  17. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    TMP: 2273
    TWOK, TSFS: 2285
    TVH: 2286
    TFF: 2287
    TUC, the Beginning of GEN: 2293
     
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  18. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's not a theory I'm totally wedded to, but it provides interesting food for thought!
     
  19. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    There is another bit of evidence that supports that theory.

    In the first season episode "Balance of Terror", stardates from 1709.2 to 1709.6:

    And when Spock gets a visual image of the Romulan control room:

    No one knew what Romulans looked like, and so everyone is surprised to see that Romulans look like Vulcans.

    "Space seed" is also in the first season, and has stardates from 3141.9 to 3143.3. At the end Kirk offers Khan and McGivers the chance to settle on Ceti Alpha V - apparently Kirk thinks the other 72 supermen don't deserve a chance to decide for themselves.

    In Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan, about stardate 8130.4:

    And:

    So Kirk and Khan both think that they haven't seen each other for fifteen years. So Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan should be 15 years after the last meeting of Kirk and Khan, which should have been either soon after "Space Seed" ended or else during any hypothetical second visit of Kirk to Ceti Alpha V that might have happened.

    The next three movies all seemed to happen within a period of less than one year. And in the last of of those movies, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, a new Romulan representative arrives on Nimbus III, the Planet of Galactic Peace:

    It sees logical to assume that the treaty establishing Nimbus III must have been signed after "Balance of Terror". And it seems certain that settlers would have begun to arrive on Nimbus III after "Balance of Terror", because any subjects of the Romulan empire who settled there would probably soon describe what Romulans looked like to people who asked them.

    Even thought the fictional time span between Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan and Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was less than one year, they were released five years apart, in 1982 and 1989 respectively. Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan was filmed in 1981, about 15 years after first season episodes like "Balance of Terror" and "Space Seed" were filmed, and Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was filmed in 1988, about 22 years after first season episodes were filmed.

    So the makers of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier might have assumed that since it was filmed 22 years after first season episodes were filmed, it should have a fictional date 22 years after the fictional date of the first season episodes. And I can't help thinking that it was really amateurish of them not to count the fictional time instead, and realize that Star Trek V: The Final Frontier should be no more than 16 years after "Space Seed" in fictional time.

    One possible solution would be that Caitlin Dar was using Romulan years in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier and they were shorter than the years used by Kirk and Khan in Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan so that 20 of Dar's years equaled about 15 of Kirk and Khan's years.

    And another possibility is that Kirk, Khan, and Dar used years of the same length. In that case Nimbus III would have been established sometime after "Balance of Terror", and possibly before "Space Seed". Kirk would have visited Ceti Alpha V a second time at least 5 years after Nimbus III was established. Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan would have happened 15 years after Kirk's last visit to Ceti Alpha V and 20 years after Nimbus III was established and even longer after "Balance of Terror". And Star Trek V: The Final Frontier would happen less than a year after Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan.

    So if Kirk and Chekov made a second visit to Ceti Alpha V about 5 years after "Space seed", that would explain why the four Star Trek movies in the 1980s could happen less than one fictional year apart and both 15 years after Kirk & Khan last saw each other and 20 years after Nimbus III was established.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019 at 5:27 AM
  20. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    15 years on Ceti Alpha V = 18 on Earth and aboard the Enterprise. More or less.