When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

[Oddish]

Phage is interesting, it's true. Consider:

JANEWAY: "I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act. If we were closer to home I would lock you up and turn you over to my authorities for trial, but I don't even have that ability here, and I am not prepared to carry you forever in our brig. So I see no other alternative but to let you go."

Imagine in an alternative reality, Janeway summons Tuvix to her ready room and says:

JANEWAY: "Mr. Tuvix, I don't have the freedom to kill you to restore two others. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act. If we were closer to home I would bring you before a Starfleet tribunal to determine your rights as an individual, but I don't even have that ability here. So I see no other alternative but to allow you to continue to live, as the person you are now."

I wonder how close Janeway came to uttering those words... lately, I've been wondering a lot.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tuvix was free and clear until Kes cried.

The tearful protestations of a child who dumped him a month later because she's not into drug dealers, tipped the scales.

...huh?

Every Host except Verad warranted an external avatar made up from the DS9 command crew (and Quark) for first Jadzia, and then years later for Ezri to have a chat with about the nature of being Dax.

I supposed that there should have been two Jadzia Avatars, since Jadzia joined with Dax twice.

@jackoverfull then said something about my mother wearing combat boots.

 

[Oddish]

Every Host except Verad warranted an external avatar made up from the DS9 command crew (and Quark) for first Jadzia, and then years later for Ezri to have a chat with about the nature of being Dax.

If Verad were included as a host, I wonder if Odan's zhantara would include Riker...

Maybe a host has to be dead IRL to be included. Verad might still be alive somewhere, assuming he didn't hang himself in his prison cell.

Tuvix was free and clear until Kes cried.

In other words, by trying to get Kes to advocate for him, he condemned himself to a one-way ticket to Splitsville. Ironic.

The tearful protestations of a child who dumped him a month later because she's not into drug dealers, tipped the scales.

It was actually about six months, equivalent to about 5-1/2 years allowing for lifespan difference (9 vs. 100).

"Resolutions" covered 2-3 months.
And figure the first third of Season 3 was about four more.

 

[DonIago]

I'm speaking from memory here, but I really do remember that Janeway seemed reasonably alright with letting Tuvix live his life until Kes cried to her, and the blatant if unintentional appeal to pathos really pissed me off.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm speaking from memory here, but I really do remember that Janeway seemed reasonably alright with letting Tuvix live his life until Kes cried to her, and the blatant if unintentional appeal to pathos really pissed me off.

Kes didn't like it that Tuvix wanted to sleep with her sexually.

It reminded her of being a Kazon slavegirl.

Neelix NEVER slept with her sexually.

So who she really had a problem with was Tuvok's century old Libido.

Or Tuvok's Libido that now did not have to wait 7 years to put another round in the chamber.

 

[Oddish]

I'm speaking from memory here, but I really do remember that Janeway seemed reasonably alright with letting Tuvix live his life until Kes cried to her, and the blatant if unintentional appeal to pathos really pissed me off.

I had the script in front of me. I'd need to rewatch it to be sure, but she seemed... undecided.

Or Tuvok's Libido that now did not have to wait 7 years to put another round in the chamber.

Interesting way to put it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I had the script in front of me. I'd need to rewatch it to be sure, but she seemed... undecided.



Interesting way to put it.

Cannot take credit.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Farscape One]

Janeway's final argument to herself was Tuvok's wife T'Pel might be sad, even though Vulcans suppress their emotions, and she already thinks Tuvok is dead, and who in 70 years when their descendants get the ship home, will probably be dead herself.

Vulcans can live over 200 years. Assuming T'Pel is around the same age as Tuvok, which is likely the scenario, she's actually probably the only person in the Alpha Quadrant that has any ties to the crew who would be alive if Voyager took the full 75 years.

Other than some of Vorik's family.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Vulcans can live over 200 years. Assuming T'Pel is around the same age as Tuvok, which is likely the scenario, she's actually probably the only person in the Alpha Quadrant that has any ties to the crew who would be alive if Voyager took the full 75 years.

Other than some of Vorik's family.

A study, published in Menopause in January 2015, found women who had their last kid after 33 had double the chance of living to 95 or older as opposed to those who had their last one by 29. Another study showed women who gave birth after 40 were four times more likely to live to be a 100 years old.

Statistically, the more babies you have, the longer you live.

By not having 10 babies over the next 70 years, 2372 - 2442, T'Pel has cut 35 years off her projected life span.

Maybe Ponn Far is a trick to stop Vulcan Woman from living forever?

No one gives a a shit about Vorik.

Taurik however is beloved by all.

 

[Oddish]

Some strange theories being presented here... let me add one of my own.
If Chakotay had been mixed in with Tuvok and Neelix, would he call himself Threevix? Or TuChakolix?

More seriously, what would the fan reaction to Janeway be if she spared Tuvix? "Betrayed her friend"?... "Turned her back on Neelix and Tuvok"?... "I guess the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many"? Hmmmmmmm???

 

[Farscape One]

Statistically, the more babies you have, the longer you live.

By not having 10 babies over the next 70 years, 2372 - 2442, T'Pel has cut 35 years off her projected life span.

Maybe Ponn Far is a trick to stop Vulcan Woman from living forever?

No one gives a a shit about Vorik.

Taurik however is beloved by all.

You realize that the study you are talking about involves humans, right?

Vulcans are not human. Their internal organs are arranged differently. They don't even have the same color blood.

Besides that, she already had FOUR kids with Tuvok. Also, just because you have sex doesn't guarantee you get a child each time afterward.

So my point on T'Pel probably being alive that long still stands.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You realize that the study you are talking about involves humans, right?

Vulcans are not human. Their internal organs are arranged differently. They don't even have the same color blood.

Besides that, she already had FOUR kids with Tuvok. Also, just because you have sex doesn't guarantee you get a child each time afterward.

So my point on T'Pel probably being alive that long still stands.

I was never disagreeing with you on Vulcan longivity.

Although the argument can be made that she may chose to die, rather than look for another mate.

Mark Johnson made it with a funeral crasher on top of the memory of his dear sweet Kathryn

Some strange theories being presented here... let me add one of my own.
If Chakotay had been mixed in with Tuvok and Neelix, would he call himself Threevix? Or TuChakolix?

More seriously, what would the fan reaction to Janeway be if she spared Tuvix? "Betrayed her friend"?... "Turned her back on Neelix and Tuvok"?... "I guess the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many"? Hmmmmmmm???

Janeway gets sidelined in Resolutions.

Captain Tuvix.

Of Course if you add chuckles to the mix, then either Tuchakix is marooned with her, or he is left behind as Captain Tuchakix, and the Captain Never goes back to rescue Kathryn because she almost killed him while trying to calculate if he is a person.

 

[Oddish]

Captain Tuvix.

Done that, believe it or not. The results were interesting. After all, Tuvix would have been sensitive to the needs of emotional beings, would have taken steps to boost morale, would have shifted the command structure to allow for the loss of the two senior members... and would have worn the correct uniform.

Of Course if you add chuckles to the mix, then either Tuchakix is marooned with her, is left behind as Captain Tuchakix, and he Never goes back to rescue Kathryn because she almost killed him.

Can't decide which my favorite scenario is. Probably the third. Voyager gets its first alien captain... and Janeway spends the next 65 years chasing monkeys.

 

[jackoverfull]

If you get the same book out 6 times, are the librarians going to say that you took the book out 6 times or once?

if you meet someone, then someone else, then the first person again you met three people?

When Tom Riker rejoined Starfleet, should he have gotten Will Riker's rank?

no, he’s a different person by then. But since he got a promotion due to his heroic acts on the very mission that duplicated him Tom deserved one as well.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Jadzia Dax 1 is birth to extraction by Verad.
Jadzia Dax 2 is birth to death by Dukat.

Jadzia Dax 1 never met Worf.

That makes her a completely a different person because everything that Jadzia 1 holds dear, is olden day shit Jadzia 2 can barely recall 7 years later.

It's really a very similar situation to Tom and Will Riker, or Captain Janeway and Admiral Janeway, or anytime a future person gets in the face of a present day person to stupid to understand that they are from the past, and nothing they hold dear is not mutable.

The simbiosis commission.

They couldn't delete Joran Dax, but they did suppress him for 70 years, and that is also what I suspect happened to Jadzia Dax, and Verad Dax.

 

[jackoverfull]

Jadzia Dax 1 is birth to extraction by Verad.
Jadzia Dax 2 is birth to death by Dukat.

Jadzia Dax 1 never met Worf.

That makes her a completely a different person because everything that Jadzia 1 holds dear, is olden day shit Jadzia 2 can barely recall 7 years later.

It's really a very similar situation to Tom and Will Riker, or Captain Janeway and Admiral Janeway, or anytime a future person gets in the face of a present day person to stupid to understand that they are from the past, and nothing they hold dear is not mutable.

The simbiosis commission.

They couldn't delete Joran Dax, but they did suppress him for 70 years, and that is also what I suspect happened to Jadzia Dax, and Verad Dax.

if you want to be philosophical you are a different person than the one you were a moment ago. Otherwise…this is nonsense.

 

[Guy Gardener]

if you want to be philosophical you are a different person than the one you were a moment ago. Otherwise…this is nonsense.

TNG Tapestry.

Old Picard got to make decisions for young Picard, which undid his life on the Enterprise, because he thought he knew better.

 

[jackoverfull]

And he’s still the same person. That was the whole point. As is the one with General Picard in Picard.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The whole point of Tapestry is...

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Oddish]

I'm fine with figuring that Jadzia was a single host, not two.

Regarding Verad, remember that Dax was taken away from him before the joining was complete. That's why, while Verad Dax was obliterated, Verad himself survived. Presumably, the Federation penal colony will release him after a couple of decades, but he will probably never escape the self-made prison of his own inadequacy, mediocrity, and self-loathing. As he said, the Joining had begun, but it was stopped before it became irrevocable. Ergo, while Verad's memories will remain, he won't be a true host.