When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2020
    Location:
    Italy
    I can imagine Beltran being disinterested in the character, but that definitely couldn’t be the issue with Wang, who is still to this day obviously a huge Trek fan.
     
    Ragitsu likes this.
  2. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Location:
    Paris (FRANCE)
    Wang is still a huge Trek fan for sure but, let's be honest, he no longer has any chance of reprising his role of Harry Kim in future Star Trek.'s official projects. Maybe, at a pinch, lending his voice for Star Trek: Prodigy like Beltran, who was just recruited for the cartoon.
     
  3. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    He could turn up in Picard, too. He's close enough to the right age.
     
    jackoverfull likes this.
  4. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2020
    Location:
    Italy
    never say never. He could appear (voice) in lds or prodigy and in person in Picard or, why not, even discovery.
     
    Ragitsu likes this.
  5. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Cryogenically preserved, maybe. Or a time portal. Or he's Harry's (great)²² grandson.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  6. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2001
    Location:
    Lynx Empire
    Fortunately not!
     
    Ragitsu and Danja like this.
  7. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Location:
    Sunny California
    Because she wasn't consider as a candidate for Sexiest Man Alive.:rommie:

    Don't shroud this thread with facts.
     
    Lynx likes this.
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    Well, Beltran came back.
     
  9. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2020
    Location:
    Italy
    twenty years later, on a different show and with different writers and showrunners. And again, his discontent on how his character was written is well known, but doesn’t necessarily mean that he didn’t like the part at all.
     
  10. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    It's funny...they - arguably the two most attractive cast members - tend to give joint interviews or attend conventions together.
     
    SolarisOne likes this.
  11. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2020
    You seem to be contradicting yourself...
     
  12. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    *zing*

    One of the better youtube channels for sure...

    That's the rub. Janeway had no little cliquish claque or claquish clique. Apart from Seven, oddly and ironically, which is when the show became most memorable in terms of character interaction. Prior to Seven, there were a handful of good-to-above-average episodes ("Meld" being one of the best) that threw a character a bone, but nothing that had VOY's iteration of a coalesced focal point.

    Deborgifying someone was definitely the way the show needed to go, and the resultant arc of reclaiming one's humanity is a biggie. The combination of writing and acting paid off, and much storytelling gold would be found with the Borg. Certainly more depth than a silly ha-ha-bonk big screen movie could even begin to provide, and VOY revived the Borg to make them a proper threat again after the movie trashed them for cheap jokes... for a while, anyway.

    Aye.

    Early VOY was a dreary mess, not knowing what to use what it had. Having the two factions chum up so quick was also a mistake.

    A logical assertion. :D

    It's bizarre how little development he got. That's far more annoying than Neelix could ever be, and he often wasn't.

    Aye.

    Which felt more forced than Neelix's cloying at times.

    But with a background that Jar Jar would never get. VOY had a lot of characters with a lot of potential and even backstory.

    Kes was dumped for Seven, surely?

    Seven's hamunity humanity tales were often engaging, IMHO.

    The EMH was a programmed holographic projection, as an extension of the main computer. How can something not sentient create a sentient being, complete with glow-in-the-dark light switch to easily find and turn off on cue?

    It's rewatch time; I only vaguely recall the events. I recall her pegging him, but he was stuck in the middle with the Borg playing on him too.

    Dumbest. Episode. Ever. Especially when "The Naked Time" is a far better (if not unintentional) better sexually transmitted disease allegory - you know, guy goes out to explore, removes protective gear, gets infected, goes back to his comfy group and spreads it to all of them... oops...

    Worst decision ever. The two beings were combined, with excess matter discarded. It didn't stay in the pattern buffer. When Tuvix was to be detuvixed, where did the matter needed to replace the other two come from? It didn't help that Tuvix was so likeable, or is that the cliche - get audience to really warm up to a character, one who'll be killed off in some poorly scribbled denouement at the end because we're supposed to be all wound up on cue... Inevitable for every character, perhaps, but it sure as bleep doesn't feel very authentic in this episode. Never mind Janeway's antics on top of a gimmicky episode. It would have been more interesting for the show to keep Tuvix and have a better buildup over time, too...

    The more the episodes let Janeway flip flop more than an electrical impulse in a transistor array is the more the dislike of her character became for some detractors. That's pretty much the domain of the script department. Not being serialized is partial reason and that's when character motivations and continuity lose wiggle room... but how often did Kirk, Picard, and Sisko flip flop or otherwise become so inconsistent between episodes or so quickly? (not to mention, can the context of one situation allow for wiggle room where it might not for another?)
     
    jackoverfull likes this.
  13. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Tom Paris grew on me. Yes, I enjoyed Mr. Paris' character development.

    You're a regular George Lucas :beer:!
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Evolution isn't sentient, but it produced beings that are. Consciousness is an emergent property of the interaction of simpler processes. It's a function of the way a neural network is structured and organized. That network can be created by a nonsentient process, such as cellular reproduction or computer calculation, with the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    "50 Most Beautiful People in the World"

    Also on the list (for that year)... Lucy Lawless and Brad Pitt.
     
    Ragitsu likes this.
  16. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    How did FC trash the Borg more than Voyager? While I don't agree with how FC gave the Borg a face with the Queen (the faceless threat that couldn't be reasoned with being the true terror the Borg instilled in me), I can understand that it was easier from a narrative perspective, and at least, in FC still felt scary. In many episodes of VOY, they didn't, where casual temporary assimilation as a part of a tactical plan was apparently a viable option.

    As for me, the moment 7 came in, it felt as the moment the show essentially gave up trying to be something new and original, and just go for the 'easy' route to achieve ratings successes (Borg, Babe, and Explosions). That the show didn't go completely down the drain from that point is mostly thanks to Ryan's, Mulgrew's, and Picardo's acting talent, they worked great together, even with scripts that went where Trek already had gone several times before. Even though I agree the road of the first three seasons had been very rough and patchy, I appreciate that they at least tried in those early seasons.
     
    dupersuper and jackoverfull like this.
  17. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Arguably Voyager's worst. I will not say that Rick Berman was universally bad for Star Trek (he did a lot of good), but I think Voyager would have been a better show without his influence.

    If Chakotay had been allowed to be the renegade he was supposed to be, that might not have been the case.

    Think about what DS9 could have done with a wet behind the ears ensign. Or don't think, just look at Bashir or Nog.

    Even if they had chosen to move Harry to the back burner, keeping him at ensign for 7 years was just ridiculous, and it showed a complete lack of professionalism on the showrunners' part. That or a lack of intelligence.

    This. If DS9's team had gotten a hold of these characters, they would have evolved rather than stagnating. Neelix included.

    The two could easily have coexisted.

    That's one of the weaknesses of the notion of a sentient hologram: how can a machine generate a person?

    As much as I detest the notion that Harry got hammered for something Riker did twice a week, I still maintain that "Threshold" holds that distinction.
     
    jackoverfull likes this.
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The Data experience.

    The crew fights to prove the humanity of a bag of plastic who objects to their every argument.

    Every thing the Doctor did, including writing that book, was preordained by Zimmerman. Every EMH 1 pressed into a similar situation is going to regurgitate the same book that Zimmerman wrote years ago, baring some fuzzy facts used to make the book specific to the EMH's specificity.
     
  19. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    How can a DNA molecule generate a person? How can simple hydrogen and oxygen atoms generate the intricate fractal pattern of a snowflake? Like I said, it's natural for emergent properties to be more complex than the things that generate them.
     
    dupersuper, SolarisOne and DonIago like this.
  20. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Location:
    Sunny California
    Well... they're better looking than Jeri Ryan in the late 90's.:rommie:
     
    Ragitsu likes this.