When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You live in a depressing reality. Are you surrounded by well-meaning war criminals?
     
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  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, I'm a mental health therapist.
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Voyager could have doubled its torpedo reserves after Deadlock, although antimatter wasn't being duplicated by the spacial scission so the reserve might have just as easily been halved.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  4. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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  5. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not sure of that. I never got the feeling the Cardassians wanted the Bajorans systematically exterminated like the Nazis wanted to do with the Jews (at least, after the Wannsee conference). 50 years of occupation would have been ample time for that, too. Even though they did suppress them brutally and weren't above mass killings, they probably just wanted slave labor and cheap resources. I'd rather compare them to people like the Palestines or perhaps the Tibetans.

    As for the actual topic. I remember reviews written during Voyagers first run, that said things like 'of course, mummy Kate always knows best'. So, there already was the implicit observation that Janeway was almost always proven right by the writers and wasn't afraid to show it in a somewhat overbearing manner. (At least that's how I interpret(ed) the comment). So I think the seeds for it were already there back then.

    I've often wondered whether this was a backlash from the prejudices coming with showing the first woman captain in Trek, that the writers didn't dare to give her weaknesses, or being shown wrong too often, much like Mulgrew herself once commented they were obsessing a lot about how the Janeway character should be portrayed and ended up channeling that obsession it in the silly outlet of how her hair should look.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
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  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Cardassian Government back on Cardassia did not instruct, or expect Death Camps, but they didn't care if work camps worked a few trouble makers to death.

    Prefect Dukat "CONSIDERED" killing them all, after 50 years of trying really hard to be cool about the Terrorism targeting the innocent Cardassians on dirty Bajor.
     
  7. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Knowing Ducat, that may just have been an empty ' boast' . I'm not sure that even as Prefect of Bajor, he would have had the authority to order that without permission from his higher ups. After all, it could mean a fundamental change of Cardassian politics towards Bajor, and may have been far overstepping his mandate of maintaining order on Bajor.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One ship.

    One torpedo.

    Solar flare.

    All the air is boiled off Bajor.

    Any number of other weapons of mass destruction could be used to achieve mass depopulation, that do not require a super computer crunching math waiting for a star to be "just right" to smack the blue off Bajor.

    Dukat could have done it secretly and quickly with a super weapon, or openly with conventional weapons.

    It takes a constitution class star ship 24 hours to frag a planet.

    It'd take a "modern" ship much less than that.

    Christopher Columbus.

    Queen Isabella told him to play nice in the new world.

    He took slaves, executed random people, and cut the hands of locals who failed to acquire gold quick enough.
     
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  9. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ I'm sure he could have, technically speaking, he'd have had sufficient destructive potential at his fingertips. Just not sure whether he was prepared to pay the potential price afterwards (e.g. being in a penal colony for the rest of his life or execution), depending on how his higher ups might have responded.

    If he tried to do it secretly, he'd probably need to sacrifice the majority of all Cardassian troops on Bajor as well. After all, withdrawing them to save them before this disastrous 'fluke' solar flare hit would be highly suspicious, and I don't expect them to have space gear for all troops at hand, or enough ships to evacuate them all at an instant's notice. Columbus probably got away with it because he was months and months away from any enforcement (and possibly Isabella really didn't mind that much, but I would have to read up on that).
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It wouldn't have worked.

    The Prophets hedged the time line they wanted.

    Sisko was trying to give birth to himself, which was never going to happen if Bajor was a dead world.

    Imagine what that did to Dukat's sanity!

    He decided to kill all the Bajorans 10,000 times, in the final year, made plans, set up contingencies, and then within moments of executing his genocide, he punks out.

    For every infinite timelines where Dukat kills all life on Bajor, there are three where he doesn't.

    (Yes, I know infinity minus 1 is still infinity, hush, I'm telling an amazing joke.)

    It's impotence.

    Dukat yelling at his penis.

    "Work damn it! Get hard you lazy son of a bitch!"
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  11. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think there's a lot of truth in that. They were trying to balance warmth, femininity, and professionalism, and Janeway's "look" had to be just so. And a corollary to that was that she had to be good at pretty much everything, capable of going full Rambo with a knife or bat'leth, coming up with technobabble solutions to all manner of problems, having Jim Jones level devotion from her crew (even the ones she short-changes), etc.

    One thing I like about Season 2 Boimler on "Lower Decks" (he was pretty useless in S1) is that he solves problems, but he solves them his way.
    In "Mugato Gumato", he doesn't beat the Ferengi in combat, he beats them by using his intelligence to persuade them that it's more profitable to do what he wants. In other words, instead of seeming to have nothing but strengths (like Mariner), he plays to his strengths.

    LD may be a parody, but Voyager could have taken a lesson from it nonetheless. Had it existed then, of course.
     
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  12. Danja

    Danja Commodore Commodore

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    Mulgrew HATED "the bun" (she said it was difficult and time-consuming to style).
     
  13. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Seems like a tradition...
    Patrick Stewart had to wear a wig initially, which I doubt he liked much.
    Avery Brooks was contractually obligated to have hair for the first three seasons of DS9 (he preferred the bald look).
    And Janeway's hair presented multiple issues early on.
     
  14. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Granted it's non-canon, but the Terok Nor novel trilogy had Crell Moset sterilizing Bajoran women without their knowledge. With that, I'd say the Cardassian goal (at least for some Cardassians) was to get all the resources they could from the planet, and then leave no witnesses.
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    "Had to" is an overstatement. It was briefly tried in early tests, but rejected.
     
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  16. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If I remember right, Roddenberry didn't want Stewart at first, he was more Rick Berman's idea (say what you want about the man, he DID give us Picard). Roddenberry finally agreed, provided Stewart wore a rug. Soon after, I think Gene decided he liked Stewart better without it.
     
  17. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    It was actually Bob Justman, not Berman, who advocated casting Stewart, though Berman agreed. Otherwise, you're pretty close.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/patrick-stewart-star-trek-audition/

    Roddenberry resisted casting a bald man and insisted that Stewart wear a toupee for his final audition, but when the Paramount president saw the audition tape, he ordered, "Go with the English guy, but lose the wig."
     
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  19. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I did found Wesley a bit annoying when I started to watch TNG.
    But I never hated him.
    And when I started to use Internet and read about all the hate, then I started to like him!
     
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  20. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    From season 4 and onwards, it was Seven's show with Janeway and The Doctor as co-stars and the rest of the characters like moving images in the background. They became no more important than O'Brien was in early TNG and Broik was in DS9.

    As for ratings, obviously the strategy backfired:

    [​IMG]
     
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