When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure it's fair to say the strategy "backfired"...as far as I know, for most TV shows the ratings gradually decline over time, and it's not as though they sharply plummeted after S4. Is there any evidence that VOY did noticeably worse than other Trek series in this regard?

    Obviously ENT didn't have much to report in the way of ratings after S4.
     
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  2. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Sad but true. Though I think Chakotay and Harry were already there before Seven showed up.
     
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    It's a myth that Voyager became "The Seven Show" after season 4. I did an article about this for Star Trek Magazine some years back and compiled a list, and I determined that in the last four seasons, Janeway was consistently the character with the most focus episodes (36 out of 103), with Seven a close second overall (32 episodes) and the Doctor third (about 25), although in season 7, the Doctor actually had slightly more focus episodes than Seven. Chakotay was in fourth place with 21 focus episodes in the last four seasons, followed by Torres (17), Paris (12), Tuvok (10), and Neelix and Kim (about 6 each). (This was counting episodes where they were the main focus, not counting ones where they were featured in the B plots.) Seven was the focus character in about half the episodes in season 4, understandably as she was the new cast member and needed more focus to establish her, but in the last three seasons she was the focus character in only 7-8 episodes per season, less than a third overall.

    Basically Voyager ended up with the same dynamic as TOS -- the show centered around the stalwart captain, the cool, brilliant half-human sex symbol, and the acerbic doctor. Although the rest of the cast still managed to get more focus episodes than the supporting TOS cast did.
     
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  4. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Can this article be found online anywhere?
     
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  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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  6. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Admiral Admiral

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    That's true in terms of the episodes but all the marketing of course was centered around Seven once she joined the show.
     
  7. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It was impossible to buy any of the Star Trek magazines in those days without a poster or an article about Seven.
     
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  8. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Chakotay had 21 episodes, though? All the others seem about right, but he seemed almost as "back burnered" as Harry was.
     
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which is why I stopped.
     
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  10. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commander Red Shirt

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    Garrett Wang ended up in People magazine...so why didn't Jeri Ryan?
     
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, including episodes where Chakotay shared the A-plot with another character or two. For seasons 4-7, I have him down in my notes for the article as featured in:

    Scorpion Pt 2 (with Janeway and Seven)
    Nemesis
    Year of Hell 1 (w/ Janeway), 2 (w/ Paris)
    Mortal Coil (w/ Neelix, Seven)
    Waking Moments
    Unforgettable
    Extreme Risk (w/ Torres)
    In the Flesh
    Timeless (w/ Kim)
    The Fight (w/ Doctor)
    Equinox 1, 2 (w/ Janeway)
    One Small Step (w/ Seven)
    Voyager Conspiracy (w/ Janeway, Seven)
    Shattered (w/ Janeway)
    Workforce 1, 2 (w/ Janeway)
    Human Error (w/ Seven, Doctor)
    Natural Law (w/ Seven)

    That's only 20, but there were some borderline cases that I guess I counted differently in the final article. But yeah, most of his focus episodes are shared with another character, but that's true of the others as well. For instance, the only episodes I have down as solo Seven focuses are "Bliss," "Survival Instinct," and "Collective"; the rest of her focus episodes are shared with at least one other character.

    I guess the thing is that while Chakotay got to be the featured character fairly often, his stories in later seasons rarely delved that much into his personality or backstory, since they'd mostly scrapped the fake Native American stuff by then. So it didn't feel like they did that much with him.
     
  12. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commander Red Shirt

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    Awesome Amerindian.
     
  13. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    A lot of those episodes were what I call "ensemble" episodes, which weren't really about any one character. But Chakotay did have a few: Nemesis, Unforgettable, In the Flesh, the Fight...
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I do have a number of ensemble episodes in my list, such as "Hunters," "The Killing Game," "Night," and "Memorial," where you can't single out any one or two characters as more central than the others. But the episodes I listed above where ones where the primary plotline focused on Chakotay and one or two others.

    Really, there are few episodes that are only about one main character. Most episodes' A plots centered on at least two of the main characters in interaction.
     
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  15. cgervasi

    cgervasi Commander Red Shirt

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    I remember meeting a Star Trek fan on a business trip in 2000 or 2001; I remember it being before airport security increased after the 9/11 attacks. We talked about how Janeway didn't seem to have the moral standards the other captains had, even accounting for her being stranded far from home. He told me he read something on a message board about the court martial Janeway would face if she got home.

    Our dislike of Janeway was NOT part of the nonsense people have said about every single new series starting with DS9: "This new show is not real Star Trek. It's too politically correct to be believable."

    If this memory is accurate, Janeway criticism predates YouTube.
     
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  16. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think you are forgetting the total amount of screen time Seven got, compared to the other characters, except for Janeway and The Doctor.

    The cameras had a peculiar way to find Seven, even if she wasn't the focus of something which was going on right then.

    Like if Janeway and Chakotay had a discussion on the bridge about something and all of a sudden Seven shows up in the picture, despite the fact that she isn't involved in the discussion.

    As for the TOS dynamic, I think that it was a step back in development, to a time when series had only two-three main characters. Compare that to DS9 which had 8-9 main characters plus some recurring characters who each of them got much more screen time and stories than all the recurring characters on Voyager together.

    And even if we compare with TOS, characters like Scotty, Sulu and Chekov had more importance, screen time and storylines than Paris, Tuvok, Torres, Kim and Neelix had in the later seasons.
     
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  17. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commander Red Shirt

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    It's a variation (inverted variation?) of the Streisand effect, I'd wager: many people probably disliked Wesley Crusher because other people did.
     
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  18. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sometimes I react that way when something rather harmless is attacked and hated the way Wesley was.

    I found him rather harmless. Not my favorite, sometimes a bit annoying but I could never understand the hatred towards him.

    And I didn't like the way he was dumped in Journey's End either. However, not as bad as how kes was ruined in THAT episode in season 6 of Voyager..
     
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  19. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commander Red Shirt

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    I do not know how to insert spoilers, but...let's just say that Journey's End wasn't exactly the last of Mr. Crusher.
     
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  20. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think that Chakotay and Harry didn't evolve during the 7 years the show lasted, because of the laziness attitude from the actors. I remember Brannon Braga telling for example that, because he felt that Robert Beltran refused to get involved in his character, especially from s4, he (Braga) didn't - or no longer - want to write about Chakotay (and Beltran thought on his side that his character having been pushed aside for Seven and the Doctor, he didn't see the point of making an effort).
    As for Garrett Wang, the actor has failed several times to be fired from the program. He was maintained in the cast only because the studio forced the showrunners to keep him. Result : they took revenge for this by making certain humiliating decisions like refusing to the actor to direct an episode when numerous others actors (3) from the show directed several episodes, by maintaining his character at the rank of Ensign.

    That being said, Chakotay and Harry were not completely sidelined as seeing as they got some great episodes in s5, s6 and s7. And to end, Chakotay ended with Seven even if it was out of blue and Harry Kim had the right to the last word in the finale about the friends and family he gained during the long journey.

    I have no problem with the introduction of Seven of Nine and the increasingly important place she held on board of Voyager. Indeed, Seven is a very rich character. The most interesting for me being her complex relationship with Janeway. I loved their scenes with the Captain, Tuvok and the Doctor. :-)
     
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