When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. MarkusTay

    MarkusTay Commander Red Shirt

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    For me, during my current rewatch, its when she sentenced Tuvix to death. That was brutal.
    Especially considering its documented that the transporter can duplicate people - they couldn't have just duplicated Tuvix before separating him? Ryker's 'brother' gets a pass, but Tuvix doesn't?

    Also, she definitely shows quite a bit of favoritism for certain characters. Its the main ones, and I realize its just a show and thats how it needs to be, but its so damn blatant about it. Chakotay is traveling with a female ensign in a shuttle and she is killed, and no-one, for the rest of that episode, so much as mention's her. When Chakotay informs the ship of it, Janeway literally ignores it and asks him how HE is. Like the woman was just some nameless piece of garbage that can be thrown away. When Kes or Neelix are in danger Janeway wrings her hands and is willing to go to the ends of the Delta quadrant for them, but an actual, STARFLEET crewmember? They're trash. And if there is the slightest chance an evil Caradassian woman had Chakotay's baby, Janeway is willing to go weeks out of their way to help him (which was a trap, which they suspected, and walked right into anyway because she has no control over her emotions).

    Sure, its ST, and I have to admit Voyager is probably a lot more like the TOS than most of the other shows (planet/species of the week), but yeesh, they can be a little less blatant about it. 'Red shirts' indeed.
     
  2. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    indeed. Sure, Riker’s was a very unusual and not easily replicated event, but it’s not as if they were in any hurry. They could have studied the issue until they were ready to duplicate Tuvix, then separate one of them into the two crewmen (preferably all in a single go, so the second tuvix isn’t “killed”) and everybody wins (and voyager gains a very experienced officer).

    truth be told, this happens a lot in Star Trek. Main character in distress? Oh no, the horror! Crewmen died? Who cares?
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The problem was that Tuvix was a cage that was torturing Tuvok and Neelix.

    If you create a duplicate Tuvix, then you have 2 trapped Neelixs and two trapped Tuvoks.

    Which two do you free?

    Are you freeing the original two, or two crap fake copies?
     
  4. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    <the ethical quandaries of treating transporter technology as a ditto-machine for sentient beings>
     
  5. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    No it wasn’t. That’s not anywhere in the episode. Neelix and Tuvok weren’t suffering, as they no longer existed.
    are very important but in this case I think less so than allowing a person to die to save two. The reason I wrote that the duplication and separation procedures should have been done together is exactly to alleviate the ethical issues of creating a new life to immediately destroy it.
    The issue is still there, of course, but I believe it was a better option than what we got.
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I still think that if they had any intention of separating Tuvix then they should have put him into stasis as quickly as possible, rather than allowing him to believe he might be allowed to continue his joined existence.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    I didn't mean they were literally conscious and aware inside Tuvix.

    But they are inside him burdened with some serious functional confinement.
     
  8. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, I agree. Mark did nothing wrong. And Janeway clearly did not fault him.

    Extremely. It reminded me of a convict being walked from their cell to the electric chair.

    I think that Riker's duplication occured under very specific atmospheric conditions. It was impossible to just randomly replicate.

    We have a Tuvix topic, if you really want to get into this.

    But in short, yes. Tuvix is very much a reason for a person to decide that that don't like Janeway much.
     
  9. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    could have been a good idea.

    or perhaps they were content of being a joined being, like Curzon and Odo.

    Sure.
    impossible is a big word. They already did a transporter miracle to separate them, could have already investigated this option.
     
  10. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Imagine the implications if it were replicable? Every time I go on a dangerous away mission, let’s duplicate me as a backup. Keep the backup in stasis. If I die, wake the backup. If I’m OK, destroy the backup.

    Or I’ll just do like Michael Keaton in Multiplicity and make a bunch of myselves to split my workload.
     
  11. Ray Hardgrit

    Ray Hardgrit Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Starfleet frowns upon murdering transporter clones.
     
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  12. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    it’s pretty clear this could be done. It has happened twice already (four times if we count the split Kirk, which I don’t), so all it needs to be done is enough research.

    If anything, it’s etics that keeps them for doing as you suggest. They really don’t like having duplicates.
     
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But not regular clones, like Riker did in "Up the Long Latter."
     
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  14. Ray Hardgrit

    Ray Hardgrit Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That became illegal a few years later in "A Man Alone", so it's lucky Riker killed his clone when he did or else he would've been stuck with two of him walking around.
     
  15. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Then again, Bajoran law may not align with Federation law.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I feel like a steamroller just hit me. :scream:
     
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Odo is not a Starfleet officer.
     
  18. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    “Killing your own clone is still murder… under Bajoran law. If you were smarter you’d have done it under Federation jurisdiction, where it’s legal!”
     
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  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But, they'll still get you for illegal genetic experiments.
     
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  20. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Wasn't Riker's clone partially developed and - mentally - tabula rasa? The other clone was fully developed with an accompanying personality.