When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^If only she had been loyal, she would have been an insanely useful 'human (well, Bajoran/Cardassian) resource'. She had skills that could rival those of any on the crew (even if only for narrative reasons when she did become the traitor :) )
     
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  2. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    And she was also a skilled engineer and transporter operator. Never got what she was trying to accomplish by aligning with the Kazon.
     
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  3. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think the instability and chaos among the Kazons suited her insidious character perfectly. Running the Kazon-Nistrim sect invisibly from the background, manipulating all those male Kazons around her who thought they were in charge. Possibly only temporarily, as a stepping stone toward still bigger things.

    But then some nasty little ship that wasn't even from that part of the galaxy obstructed her plans.
     
  4. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except Seska was fully untrustworthy. No amount of skills will be an asset if you can't be trusted even slightly.
     
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  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Initially Seska was loyal to her best hope for getting home, which was not Janeway.

    Seska thought that Janeway was too namby pamby and wishy washy to get the ship home.

    Exploring, scientific examination and humanitarian missions.

    What a F$$king wuss.

    A Kazon Captain would be taking slaves, strip mining prewarp planets and ignoring the tears of innocent morons with their hand out.
     
  6. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    She felt that Voyager's best chance was to have allies. The Kazon were the dominant power in the region, and they desperately needed what Voyager had.
     
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I won't give TPTB enough credit to have thought this one up on their own, and it could have turned into a drawn out rehash of "Preemptive Strike", but it might have been interesting if Seska had been sent to join the Kazon as a spy scout to gauge their intentions toward Voyager and assess possibilities for diplomatic options...or if not, gathering intelligence that would aid Our Heroes if they were forced to engage in combat.

    Heck, in that case maybe she could have been the one to root out Jonas when it turned out he reached out to her as a way of genuinely working with the Kazon.

    From there, Seska could have remained loyal to Voyager and ultimately rejoined the crew or been killed at some point, or the arc we've already seen could have ensued in which Seska ultimately changes her allegiance because she feels the Kazon are the better option.
     
  8. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    I get the basic idea, but how could she actually believe that the Kazon would be interested in any way to bring voyager into the alpha quadrant? Not to mention that the Kazon were a pretty sexist society, where holding a position of power for a woman wasn't exactly easy (or living in pleasant).
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Water. What a bunch of losers. No. They only needed water on Ocampa. obviously the kazon can produce limited about of water and have recycling tech, but Ocamp is a mining planet and most known methods for mining ore require ridiculous amounts of water as a cheap coolant.

    Serious though Janewa tries to make allies with the Kazon and Seska because it's easier to move about with friends.... And then Janeway remembered that she is awful at making friends and junked the idea. That fake Voyager seasons later sold alliances with Voyager and made a lot of money.
     
  10. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm actually sort of grateful for Seska and Jonas. It showed that there were at least two people who didn't drink the Janeway cult's koolaid.
     
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  11. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    Plus those guys in Good Shepherd. Which she eventually proceeded to personally indocrinate!
     
  12. Ray Hardgrit

    Ray Hardgrit Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think Seska could've had more of a Seven of Nine (or a Dr Smith from Lost in Space) role on the ship and the series really wasted her. If they weren't going to have Chakotay represent the Maquis and butt heads with the captain occasionally, then Seska would've been perfect for that role... especially as she's their actual enemy. She would've been great as an extra voice in the briefing room, somewhere between a Garak and a Worf, and it would've helped externalise Janeway's inner conflicts more.
     
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  13. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Indeed. One of my current projects actually explores how that might have panned out.
     
  14. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Granted, it wouldn't have been awfully convenient, but short of executing them (which wasn't going to happen) or marooning them, it was pretty much the only other option. Hm...did Voyager possess stasis chambers by that point?
     
  15. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not sure of that. The only one who really didn't want to belong to Janeway's crew was Mortimer Harren. The other two just faced personal problems that hindered them in their daily functioning (incompetence and hypochondria).

    And Mortimer died (even though he did sacrifice himself, it was still a refusal to become part of the crew).

    It's funny how most of those that 'refuse to drink Janeway's koolaid' end up dead.
     
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  16. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, Mortimer Harren didn't die. All were rescued at the end. You see them all in sickbay at the last shot.

    But you do have a point... Jonas died, Seska ended up dead, Hogan died. (In "ALLIANCES", he was outspoken against her after the memorial for Bendera.)
     
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  17. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Seems you are right. I honestly didn't remember he was rescued at the end. It's weird how my memory can play tricks on me like that.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  18. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    I barely remember the guy on deck 15 not wanting to be on the ship and them taking a shuttle trip together…Bit I haven’t seen the episode in almost ten years.
     
  19. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You mean that boundless Janeway hatred, right?

    I remember that episode because of Zoe McLellan (the actor of Tal Celes); she made quite an impression in Dungeons & Dragons (a film which debuted the same year as Voyager's Good Shepherd).
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
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  20. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not sure what that would have to do with 'boundless Janeway hatred'. The way I thought I remembered it, Janeway did her best to save him but he was already out of transporter range. So this would have nothing to do with how I view Janeway.

    Also, I don't think I've given evidence of 'boundless Janeway hatred'. For example, I've only used expressions like 'drinking Janeway's koolaid' between apostrophs in reply to others who came up with the term. The observation that most of them who don't 'drink it' end up dead is an observation about the series, not Janeway.

    The biggest beef I have with the Janeway character itself is that the writers didn't dare to let her lose every once in a while -which would only have been very normal and expected for a lone ship in the Delta Quadrant without any additional resources to call upon- and that they also didn't dare to give her any conspicuous weaknesses (except perhaps in the form of being too dominant and inconsistent writing but that was probably inadvertently). And I think that -perhaps paradoxically- that weakened her as a character. Characters that are (nearly) Always Right belong in children's series, but not in series meant for adults in my personal opinion. I do find such characters usually more annoying than I find them compelling.

    Kira is an impressive woman, and her flaws and mistakes make her only more impressive (e.g. how she still struggles sometimes with some mistakes she made in her 'terrorist' past and the things she did then, or how she has to struggle to suppress her own temperament when the situation doesn't allow for it). We see very little of that in Janeway. The only instances I can recall of such 'doubt' in Janeway are those that were related to her uncertainties to get the crew home. For example her nightmare in Waking Moments about not getting the crew home in time, or her vehement promise to herself to get them home in Deadlock . Or the months-long depression she had in Night- which we only saw in just that episode. I would have loved to see more of such moments of inner doubt in her character.

    For example, they could have elaborated on that depression - make it more explicit that Janeway kept going as long as there were external dangers to keep her on her toes, but that when those dangers were replaced by nothingness she had no more immediate drive to pull energy from, and she had to entirely refocus her own inner motivational structure which took her some time. This is often what we see in real life too - people collapsing after a particularly difficult period has passed and they have to find a new immediate purpose. Such a story unfolding over several episodes, I would have found compelling and it would have made the character more interesting and sympathetic to me- but of course we got nothing of that - she was good as new the episode after that.

    To be fair, that's not just a Voyager flaw- most Trek suffers from 'one episode issues' that should have lasted for much longer. For example Picard's recovery after having been assimilated. But at least we do get to see many moments when Picard introspectively doubts himself.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
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