When did ST move into an alternate universe to our own?

[Nebusj]

November 1963. Specifically, the moment JFK was killed. If he'd survived, there'd be Moon bases and possibly regular missions to Mars by now.

Um. No, really, just … no.

Heck, there's rather solid reasons to suppose that had Kennedy not been murdered there wouldn't have been a moon landing by the end of 1970. His being killed gave a symbolic heft to the Apollo Program --- already, by 1963, under serious (and accurate) criticism for being an expensive, showy stunt of dubious value --- that gave it two or three more years of relative safety before the fact that space programs just aren't that important reasserted itself.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Spock could have been referring to a major biological war. There was no evidence given that Omega IV had fought a nuclear conflict. He also refers to a third World War in "Bread and Circuses" that killed 37 million people.

No, no, no. Although biological warfare was a real threat in the 20th century (i.e. Biopreparat in the Soviet Union), the reference was most certainly concerning the popular idea of nuclear war... which never happened. The evidence was the destroyed infrastructure and the idea of a "nuclear winter," which technically wasn't an issue of the 60s...

Spock's "World War III" reference must therefore refer to the Eugenics War or something different (perhaps a large economic depression that was later interpreted as a war).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Spock could have been referring to a major biological war. There was no evidence given that Omega IV had fought a nuclear conflict. He also refers to a third World War in "Bread and Circuses" that killed 37 million people.

No, no, no. Although biological warfare was a real threat in the 20th century (i.e. Biopreparat in the Soviet Union), the reference was most certainly concerning the popular idea of nuclear war... which never happened. The evidence was the destroyed infrastructure and the idea of a "nuclear winter," which technically wasn't an issue of the 60s...

Spock's "World War III" reference must therefore refer to the Eugenics War or something different (perhaps a large economic depression that was later interpreted as a war).

Hmmmm

KIRK: Then you can check the registry.
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Why are we assuming no nukes? Didn't Q have some line about the post-atomic horror in Encounter a Farpoint?

 

[WarpFactorZ]

KIRK: Then you can check the registry.
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.

Precisely!

Why are we assuming no nukes? Didn't Q have some line about the post-atomic horror in Encounter a Farpoint?

It was Picard who referenced "21st Century post-atomic horror," but that's not the issue. We're discussing TOS (pre-TNG) visions of the future, which pretty much oppose the idea of a nuclear war.

That's my point: in TOS, nuclear war was assumed to have NOT happened. Mankind avoided the ultimate destruction. TNG, in the very first episode, erased that idea.

 

[T'Girl]

But take a look at the emblems; that's the part that makes it look creepy. With emblems like that-- it somewhat resembles the San Francisco one, but has a fascist undertone to it.

Okay, fascist how? Let's see, there is a letter A, there's a bird (eagle?), and there's a seven pointed star.

It was Sanctuary District A.

The eagle is a very common symbol in America.

The current San Fransisco police badge is seven pointed star.

police officers in paramilitary uniforms

Police officers in tan coveralls.

 

[JJohnson]

Pretty sure that when Voyager visited the 'present' in Future's End, the Eugenics War wasn't raging on.

Honestly, I don't think that it is such a stretch to suggest that it was just retconned forward. There was a lot of stuff in TOS that was just plain cut out, so I don't see the problem in it being shifted around.

The way I see it, the Eugenics War was fused together with World War III, and those took place sometime between 2020s and 2060ish.

That's pretty much what I've been going off, that WW3 was the Eugenics War, just by an alternate name. That makes Khan's line in ST2 about ruling on Earth as a prince 200 years ago make more sense. His escape in Botany Bay could have been missed by the Vulcans, if there were any observing Earth at that point.

I'm guessing the Romans and Indians (Native Americans) being transported to new planets at some point in the past make it an alternate reality, along with Da Vinci et al being that TOS Methuselah. Voyager's holodeck recreations with Janeway and da Vinci make that seem retconned out though.

 

[JJohnson]

I always liked the really shitty 21st century Trek depicts. It shows that before humanity can enjoy a utopian paradise, it has to go through hell to get there.

That was the way I pictured it too, but it got too convoluted I think. It seems like Trek added too much war and catastrophe to the timeline and it became overkill.

First the Eugenics war that was described as a "world war" that destroyed entire nations, killed 37 million, then Europe falls apart, then America starts to resemble a pseudo fascist government.

Then some more catastrophes, then WWIII then comes, then enlightenment. Trek had to backtrack to repair all the contradictions.

The Eugenic Wars wouldn't necessarily impact day to day life in a large American city. It would be on the far side of a large ocean.

With world politics the way they are now, as well as in the 90's, it's hard to believe the US and other nations would have been involved or drawn in.

Genetically engineered tyrants conquering over 40 nations and the US or UN is not involved or affected?

But there is evidence the US was directly involved. Captain Archer said his great grandfather was a soldier fighting in north Africa during the Eugenics Wars.

That could mean the US was involved and Voyager failed to mention it.

FYI, the Sanctuary Districts for the homeless were inspired by an idea that was actually under consideration by the US government at the time that episode was written.

Source? Because that seems really unlikely.

If this was set up late in the 21 century, it may seem more 'realistic', but seeing how it's placed only a decade from now it seems like over kill again.

Look at the Sanctuary Police uniforms, and the emblems the government officials wear. They have a fascist look to them. So there's shades of 1984 in the episode.

Maybe the US decided to set up these districts, but does that mean they have to change the uniform style too, to look more......menacing?

Sanctuary Districts? A nicer name for the supposed FEMA relocation camps?

 

[judge alba]

But take a look at the emblems; that's the part that makes it look creepy. With emblems like that-- it somewhat resembles the San Francisco one, but has a fascist undertone to it.

Okay, fascist how? Let's see, there is a letter A, there's a bird (eagle?), and there's a seven pointed star.

It was Sanctuary District A.

The eagle is a very common symbol in America.

The current San Fransisco police badge is seven pointed star.

police officers in paramilitary uniforms

Police officers in tan coveralls.

oh.. its a eagle. I thought it was a dove or pigeon

 

[T'Girl]

^ I thought it was an eagle, but now that you mention it, the head does look more like a dove. Kind of small for an eagle.

 

[Vandervecken]

This lack of Eugenics wars is something that we are obviously missing from the show.

People are just not trying hard enough, damnitall.

 

[Ithekro]

I keep thinking he Eugenics Wars were shifted after we got past them in real time to either World War III around the 2050s, or post-First Contact and the result is what we saw in Encounter at Farpoint. Warp tech not being fully integrated worldwide just yet.

 

[BillJ]

No, no, no. Although biological warfare was a real threat in the 20th century (i.e. Biopreparat in the Soviet Union), the reference was most certainly concerning the popular idea of nuclear war... which never happened. The evidence was the destroyed infrastructure and the idea of a "nuclear winter," which technically wasn't an issue of the 60s...

There's no mention of nuclear winter in "The Omega Glory". As far as infrastructure goes, that would break down pretty quick with no one taking care of it and it had been at least 800-900 years since the conflict if the change in lifespan was instantaneous and likely several thousand years before Kirk and Company arrived.

MCCOY: The problem is, it could be anything Some spores or pollen in the air, some chemical. Just finding it could take months, maybe even years. And I've only got one lead. The infection resembles one developed by Earth during their bacteriological warfare experiments in the 1990s. Hard to believe we were once foolish enough to play around with that.

SPOCK: Captain Tracey mentioned there was once a considerable civilisation here. The only reasonable explanation would be a war. Nuclear devastation or a bacteriological holocaust.

MCCOY: Yes. I'm convinced that once there was a frightening biological war that existed here. The virus still exists. Then over the years, nature built up these natural immunising agents in the food, the water, and the soil.
SPOCK: War created an imbalance and nature counterbalanced it.

 

[Nebusj]

Why are we assuming no nukes? Didn't Q have some line about the post-atomic horror in Encounter a Farpoint?

It was Picard who referenced "21st Century post-atomic horror," but that's not the issue. We're discussing TOS (pre-TNG) visions of the future, which pretty much oppose the idea of a nuclear war.

That's my point: in TOS, nuclear war was assumed to have NOT happened. Mankind avoided the ultimate destruction. TNG, in the very first episode, erased that idea.

Is it necessarily required that something called the ``post-atomic horror'' is referring to the aftermath of a nuclear war? (Wouldn't it be the ``post-nuclear horror'' if it were?) What can we fit with imagination into that slot?

 

[T'Girl]

In a non-technical reference, atomic and nuclear are pretty much interchangeable.

 

[AirCommodore]

At what point did ST canon move into an alternate universe to our own

It's always been in an alternate universe, the same as Marvel and DC Comics are, Doctor Who, etc.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Let's imagine that these 3 major changes happening right now in San Franscico--

The government starts segregating poor people into restricted districts ( ) The police uniforms change to tan color jumpsuits, ( ) A new, big, military-like emblem is designed that all government officials wear on their chests.

Even the social worker is wearing the emblem and it looks like a police badge-- maybe it's the size. Being extra big like that makes it look like some fascist symbol.

So even today, that would be enough to have people into all types of uproar- civil rights, conspiracy theorists etc.

The far right would be yelling government conspiracies, the far left would be yelling civil rights/fascism and everyone else would just be disturbed at the very image of it.

This is supposed to take place around 2020 according to DS9. Too much of a divergence away from realistic view of our time line. (as far as sci fi goes.)

Cynicism mixed with an idea of what the early 2000's would be like.

Sometimes it's funny how sci fi tries to predict what the future will be like in only 30 or even 20 years time.

If you put Trek's apocalyptic sci fi material and apocalyptic religious material side by side, they'd look very similar.

 

[BillJ]

If you put Trek's apocalyptic sci fi material and apocalyptic religious material side by side, they'd look very similar.

Because there isn't much of a story if everything is awesome.

 

[T'Girl]

A big chunk of Star Trek is conflict, drama and problem solving.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

^ I thought it was an eagle, but now that you mention it, the head does look more like a dove. Kind of small for an eagle.

It reminds me a lot of the eagle on the Egyptian flag (from a different angle). So, not necessarily fascist, though not a particularly flattering association, either.