When did ST move into an alternate universe to our own?

[LordMudd]

I've always wondered what was going through the writers' heads when they came up with those dates, less than 30 years from their present.

Back then we looked at our world and the speed with which it was changing compared to all of the centuries before and we really believed that all of these things would happen. If you stop and think about it, we should have a moonbase (Space 1999) and a colony on Mars. Technologically we should, it is money that has prevented it. Writers are dreamers, so it would never occur to them that money would prevent the future.

CCC.

 

[Nightdiamond]

And entirely missed mentioning anything like the Eugenics wars in Voyager Future's End.

They added too much war to the time line. Some decades later Europe nearly collapses, America has "districts" for homeless people.

And then comes WWIII.

They went overboard with all the wars and tragedies. Should have just stuck with a WWIII scenario and then enlightenment, like TOS might have intended.

 

[The Wormhole]

The Eugenics Wars are constantly referred to as being in the 20th century, even Enterprise and STID did this despite being productions of the 21st centuries.

Without a doubt.

Trek lore pretty firmly places the Eugenics War in the late-20th century. Spock gives exact years the conflict took place (1992-96).

I've always wondered what was going through the writers' heads when they came up with those dates, less than 30 years from their present.

It's not much different from many other sci-fi shows in the 60s, looking at that futuristic decade known as the 1990s.

And entirely missed mentioning anything like the Eugenics wars in Voyager Future's End.

They added too much war to the time line. Some decades later Europe nearly collapses, America has "districts" for homeless people.

And then comes WWIII.

They went overboard with all the wars and tragedies. Should have just stuck with a WWIII scenario and then enlightenment, like TOS might have intended.

I always liked the really shitty 21st century Trek depicts. It shows that before humanity can enjoy a utopian paradise, it has to go through hell to get there.

FYI, the Sanctuary Districts for the homeless were inspired by an idea that was actually under consideration by the US government at the time that episode was written.

 

[T'Girl]

I've always wondered what was going through the writers' heads when they came up with those dates, less than 30 years from their present.

When you look at what was happening around the world in the 60's, the idea that a group of people would suddenly grab control of 40 odd nations would have been very reasonable.

Writers are dreamers, so it would never occur to them that money would prevent the future.

Writer were men and women working to support their families and would be fully aware that it's money that's building the future.

And entirely missed mentioning anything like the Eugenics wars in Voyager Future's End.

The Eugenic Wars wouldn't necessarily impact day to day life in a large American city. It would be on the far side of a large ocean.

FYI, the Sanctuary Districts for the homeless were inspired by an idea that was actually under consideration by the US government at the time that episode was written.

Source? Because that seems really unlikely.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I've always wondered what was going through the writers' heads when they came up with those dates, less than 30 years from their present.

When you look at what was happening around the world in the 60's, the idea that a group of people would suddenly grab control of 40 odd nations would have been very reasonable.

I was referring to them being Eugenic supermen. Such a project would have to be an on going and viable concern in the 1960s for the supermen to take over in the early 1990s.

 

[sojourner]

Writers are dreamers, so it would never occur to them that money would prevent the future.

Writer were men and women working to support their families and would be fully aware that it's money that's building the future.

And yet, they apparently weren't.

 

[T'Girl]

I was referring to them being Eugenic supermen. Such a project would have to be an on going and viable concern in the 1960s for the supermen to take over in the early 1990s.

My take is that the selective breeding program took multiple generations to create someone like Khan, and the program could have began in the late nineteenth century, with Khan having been born around 1950. Something like Robert Heinlein's Howard family.

Khan doesn't appear to me to be a "first effort."

 

[Nerys Myk]

I was referring to them being Eugenic supermen. Such a project would have to be an on going and viable concern in the 1960s for the supermen to take over in the early 1990s.

My take is that the selective breeding program took multiple generations to create someone like Khan, and the program could have began in the late nineteenth century, with Khan having been born around 1950. Something like Robert Heinlein's Howard family.

Khan doesn't appear to me to be a "first effort."

I speculate that the writers were inspired by the Fascist movements in preWWII Europe. There were six or seven Fascist countries in Europe at that time. ( and neo Fascists in power in various South American countries)And the Eugenic superman seems to be modeled on the Nazi Aryan idea. (made more obvious in TWOK)

The writers might also have assumed that a third World War was inevitable. Just as WWII followed closely on the heels of WWI.

 

[bbjeg]

When did ST move into an alternate universe to our own ?

Just before the big bang. I don't think our universe had Voyager and Quinn observing its creation.

 

[Maxillius]

November 1963. Specifically, the moment JFK was killed. If he'd survived, there'd be Moon bases and possibly regular missions to Mars by now. And the federal government wouldn't be the bastion of mistrust it is now (not to sidetrack the thread into politics, don't ban me mods! ). Notice, most tech in Star Trek has progressed in a line that seems to fit into the Star Trek future so that part at least is unaffected. NASA's got a plan for warp drive and considering the Trek future has a first flight in 2063, you'd expect it to still be a theory 50ish years before that.

Yup, I'm saying 1963 is where Trek splits from reality. Now, if we're going to talk about the Alternate Universe, I'd say the split happens in 1945 in the form of the AXIS powers winning the war.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I always liked the really shitty 21st century Trek depicts. It shows that before humanity can enjoy a utopian paradise, it has to go through hell to get there.

That was the way I pictured it too, but it got too convoluted I think. It seems like Trek added too much war and catastrophe to the timeline and it became overkill.

First the Eugenics war that was described as a "world war" that destroyed entire nations, killed 37 million, then Europe falls apart, then America starts to resemble a pseudo fascist government.

Then some more catastrophes, then WWIII then comes, then enlightenment. Trek had to backtrack to repair all the contradictions.

The Eugenic Wars wouldn't necessarily impact day to day life in a large American city. It would be on the far side of a large ocean.

With world politics the way they are now, as well as in the 90's, it's hard to believe the US and other nations would have been involved or drawn in.

Genetically engineered tyrants conquering over 40 nations and the US or UN is not involved or affected?

But there is evidence the US was directly involved. Captain Archer said his great grandfather was a soldier fighting in north Africa during the Eugenics Wars.

That could mean the US was involved and Voyager failed to mention it.

FYI, the Sanctuary Districts for the homeless were inspired by an idea that was actually under consideration by the US government at the time that episode was written.

Source? Because that seems really unlikely.

If this was set up late in the 21 century, it may seem more 'realistic', but seeing how it's placed only a decade from now it seems like over kill again.

Look at the Sanctuary Police uniforms, and the emblems the government officials wear. They have a fascist look to them. So there's shades of 1984 in the episode.

Maybe the US decided to set up these districts, but does that mean they have to change the uniform style too, to look more......menacing?

 

[WarpFactorZ]

First the Eugenics war that was described as a "world war" that destroyed entire nations, killed 37 million, then Europe falls apart, then America starts to resemble a pseudo fascist government.

Then some more catastrophes, then WWIII then comes...

This has bothered me since "Encounter at Farpoint" first aired in 1987. The unique thing about TOS's vision of the future is that Earth NEVER fought a nuclear war, which is exactly what happened in our "real" history. The Eugenics War was the closest it came, although there was some conflict involving Col. Green that always remained nebulous in the dialog of the Savage Curtain. A "genocidal war," as it was referred to, could be things that are happening today ( e.g. Darfur).

But Spock's comment in "The Omega Glory" makes it more or less crystal clear:

Kohms? Communists? The parallel is almost too close, Captain. It would mean they fought the war your Earth avoided, and in this case, the Asiatics won and took over this planet.

It was TNG that, unfortunately, did a MAJOR ret-con on this point and introduced WWIII. And everyone had to scramble after that.

Edit to add: they may be even more clairvoyant: the Asiatics (China) might well take over the planet (economy) by the end of the century!

 

[Captrek]

Do Kirk, Spock, et all live in a universe in which they can see their adventures by pulling up episodes of a 1960's TV show? No? Then the timelines must have diverged before Star Trek debuted. Space Seed, by warning of the dangers of the Eugenics program, prevented it from ever happening. The Nobel Committee's failure to recognize this is a disgrace.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Do Kirk, Spock, et all live in a universe in which they can see their adventures by pulling up episodes of a 1960's TV show? No? Then the timelines must have diverged before Star Trek debuted. Space Seed, by warning of the dangers of the Eugenics program, prevented it from ever happening. The Nobel Committee's failure to recognize this is a disgrace.

All TV shows exist in a world where that TV show doesn't exist. I don't think Rob Petrie watched The Dick Van Dyke show. Don Draper isn't in a nursing home watching Mad Men. Sheldon and Leonard don't get in arguments about the Big Bang Theory.

 

[The Wormhole]

FYI, the Sanctuary Districts for the homeless were inspired by an idea that was actually under consideration by the US government at the time that episode was written.

Source? Because that seems really unlikely.

As it turns out, I mixed things up a little. It turns out that while the episode was being filmed, the mayor of LA proposed something similar to the Sanctuary Districts. Here's info from Memory Alpha and here's an LA Times article on the matter.

 

[T'Girl]

As it turns out, I mixed things up a little. It turns out that while the episode was being filmed, the mayor of LA proposed something similar to the Sanctuary Districts.

While Seattle doesn't have Sanctuary Districts, the city cops do "encourage" the street people to stay within certain areas of the city.

Sisko said that the SD's were only located in "the major cities." perhaps they were set up by the mayors and city councils, and not the US government.

Look at the Sanctuary Police uniforms, and the emblems the government officials wear. They have a fascist look to them.

Tan coveralls and ankle boots are fascist? I've seen modern day police dressed like this, nothing scary in the least.

Genetically engineered tyrants conquering over 40 nations and the US or UN is not involved or affected?

Militarily involved? Perhaps, but that wouldn't necessarily impact Americans in their everyday lives, again other side of the ocean.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Tan coveralls and ankle boots are fascist? I've seen modern day police dressed like this, nothing scary in the least.

But take a look at the emblems; that's the part that makes it look creepy.

Why is even the social worker wearing one? . Seriously, poor people are forced to live in a restricted district and you have police officers in paramilitary uniforms walking around.

With emblems like that-- it somewhat resembles the San Francisco one, but has a fascist undertone to it.

I think realistically, the citizens would be in a paranoid uproar if they saw something like that happen. Divergence from 'realistic' timeline.

This has bothered me since "Encounter at Farpoint" first aired in 1987. The unique thing about TOS's vision of the future is that Earth NEVER fought a nuclear war, which is exactly what happened in our "real" history.

That's a good catch-- everyone assumes a nuclear war is a given, when TOS says it never occurred, only WWIII.

I never really had a problem with the idea of earth having a nuclear war either.

I just always liked the idea when they kept it simple-a major, devastating war that shook humanity to its core. They've added so much to it now, that it's gotten kind of bloated.

There's confusion about whether the Eugenics wars is the same as WWIII, or whether it took place in the 21st century etc.

By adding too many incidents to the timeline, it's like doing the same thing that they say Voyager did to the Borg--ruined it.

 

[The Wormhole]

Tan coveralls and ankle boots are fascist? I've seen modern day police dressed like this, nothing scary in the least.

But take a look at the emblems; that's the part that makes it look creepy.

Why is even the social worker wearing one? . Seriously, poor people are forced to live in a restricted district and you have police officers in paramilitary uniforms walking around.

With emblems like that-- it somewhat resembles the San Francisco one, but has a fascist undertone to it.

I think realistically, the citizens would be in a paranoid uproar if they saw something like that happen. Divergence from 'realistic' timeline.

You know, that's one episode that dates itself badly based on the look of it. That monitor on the wall of the social worker's cubicle screams "1990s idea of futuristic" and not to mention later on in the episode where we see people talking on 1990s cell phones.

Yeah, I know, the episode is meant to be commentary on a relevant social issue rather than an accurate prediction of the future, and twenty years from now people are going to look at TV of today and complain how dated it looks. It's just something I like pointing out all the same.

 

[mythme]

I always assumed the divergence happened when Braxton crashed on Earth and Starling began cannibalizing his ship, ultimately introducing the isograted circuit and its applications to humanity by the year 1969. This would have lead to the nuclear platforms, the DY-100, and all those other things in Trek's 20th century that didn't happen in our timeline.

 

[BillJ]

This has bothered me since "Encounter at Farpoint" first aired in 1987. The unique thing about TOS's vision of the future is that Earth NEVER fought a nuclear war, which is exactly what happened in our "real" history. The Eugenics War was the closest it came, although there was some conflict involving Col. Green that always remained nebulous in the dialog of the Savage Curtain. A "genocidal war," as it was referred to, could be things that are happening today ( e.g. Darfur).

But Spock's comment in "The Omega Glory" makes it more or less crystal clear:

Kohms? Communists? The parallel is almost too close, Captain. It would mean they fought the war your Earth avoided, and in this case, the Asiatics won and took over this planet.

Spock could have been referring to a major biological war. There was no evidence given that Omega IV had fought a nuclear conflict. He also refers to a third World War in "Bread and Circuses" that killed 37 million people.

SPOCK: They do seem to have escaped the carnage of your first three world wars, Doctor.
MCCOY: They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism.
SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty seven million who died in your third. Shall I go on?