Agree to disagree. Reminded me of "How Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth" as well as the original draft of "The Bonding."
When did Discovery JUMP the Shark?
- Thread starter TerryTrek
- Start date
I want to address this one thing:
You're attributing humanoid qualities to Species 10-C when they're distinctly non-humanoid.
As humans, we're polluting the Earth. What we're doing is damaging the oceans. We're destroying how much life? But out of sight, out of mind. I think Species 10-C was an analogue for that.
If a Dolphin was able to communicate with us, maybe the governments of the world (if we pretend they were all united) would change the way it does things because now there's two-way communication. I think the high-concept premise of the season was, "What if the animals could communicate back with us?" Except, in this case, we're the animals.
At least you were honest about watching DSC Season 4 with a chip on your shoulder. This is one of the reasons why I personally don't do hate-watching. If I don't like something, if I'm not enjoying it, I'm out. I'll go back to something when I'm actually willing to give it an actual chance, a serious chance. People have asked me before with things like LD, SNW, or (before) even ENT, "Why don't you watch it?" Because if I'm going to watch them, I want to watch them without a chip on my shoulder, I want to watch them without wearing Hater Shades, and I want to say that I gave them a fair chance while watching them, not deciding I already hated it before I watched a single frame. So, I actually do practice what I preach.
Dolphins are supposed to be the most intelligent non-human species on the planet. We can't communicate with them. I can listen to birds chirp and I'm sure they have their own language, but I can't communicate with them. I can't understand them.As for S4, yeah - they didn't know they were killing sentients. Like hell they didn't. Did species whatever-their-number-was not use subspace communication or warp fields? because the galaxy was teeming with those. They would have known they weren't natural phenomena - right?
You're attributing humanoid qualities to Species 10-C when they're distinctly non-humanoid.
As humans, we're polluting the Earth. What we're doing is damaging the oceans. We're destroying how much life? But out of sight, out of mind. I think Species 10-C was an analogue for that.
If a Dolphin was able to communicate with us, maybe the governments of the world (if we pretend they were all united) would change the way it does things because now there's two-way communication. I think the high-concept premise of the season was, "What if the animals could communicate back with us?" Except, in this case, we're the animals.
At least you were honest about watching DSC Season 4 with a chip on your shoulder. This is one of the reasons why I personally don't do hate-watching. If I don't like something, if I'm not enjoying it, I'm out. I'll go back to something when I'm actually willing to give it an actual chance, a serious chance. People have asked me before with things like LD, SNW, or (before) even ENT, "Why don't you watch it?" Because if I'm going to watch them, I want to watch them without a chip on my shoulder, I want to watch them without wearing Hater Shades, and I want to say that I gave them a fair chance while watching them, not deciding I already hated it before I watched a single frame. So, I actually do practice what I preach.
While for many that might be the case. But there were people stating from the first leak of the ship that the show was going to suck. People who said after leaks of costumes, and design that the show was going to suck. There were reviews out before the episode premiered stating the show sucked.
Part of Trek ever since the end of TOS has been prejudging the material that has ye tot be released and forming opinions about its quality. And frankly there is literally no way to judge the size of this. From being very small to be a larger amount of fans.
Of course the opposite is also true there are people that prejudge something that it must be good without seeing things.
But some people will absolutely prejudge material and form an opinion on if its going to be good or bad in advance.
Probably the same people who liked the concept of Charlie X, The Squire of Gothos or TNG's The Survivors.
The only aspect that I wouldn't have used was having the child be a Kelpian. Though the shows was quite clear it was the nature of the environment that had the power. I think tying it to a different race would have been an easier to pill to swallow.
Of course it also helps highlight the differences between stand alone story telling and arc based story telling. You can have a concept that people have no issue accepting in a stand alone story. But using that same basic concept for an arc based story telling might fall flat. And that is of course not even counting things like the actual execution of the concept.
I was far more bothered by the Turbo shaft of horror making another appearance in that season. While I HATED it, when it was first used. That was bad enough but they used it more. Meaning they didn't realize that doing it because it looked cool to them, trumped the fact that it is utterly irrational. It would be like the exceedingly numerous attack fighters in the Enterprise at the end of season 2. Using it once was bad enough. But if they used it again I would be even more offended.
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First off, as others have stated, the OP does not use "jumping the shark" correctly.
Second, I disagree that the show was OK/good/great and then suddenly was not. It has been much more of a roller coaster for me. Sometimes excellent. Sometimes not. Sometimes just outright dumb. Sometimes all within a single episode.
I have watched & rewatched and am in the process of rewatching again before S5. Generally speaking, I can say the show really only lost me twice: end of S2 plot stupidity and the cause of the Burn in S3.
Don't get me wrong, there have been frustrations. Silly things in episodes I otherwise liked. The hokey-ness of the light years away Burnham/Sarek mind-meld in Binary & Lethe. Landry stupidly letting the tardigrade out in Butcher's Knife.
Sometimes, The cosmic level stupidity was too much. No one caring about Nahn possibly suffocating to death whilst Burnham has angst about offing Ariam in Daedalus. Or the explanation for the Burn.
Sometimes, the show has someone explain away the stupidity. Burnham justifying the galactically stupid decision to not simply jump away at the end if Valley of Shadows. Or Georgiou telling us how smart the plan was after the improbable 2 v 20 battle on the Charon succeeds after 1 shot from tiny Discovery rattles the whole city-sized ship (except Burnham & Georgiou, of course). Yes, good plan! It was absurd.
I mean, if huge plot stupidity is a problem for you, then the end of the MU, S2, and the Burn explanation are a problem. The S1 finale does not make much sense either. To me at least.
But outside of that, and the mostly terrible fight scenes, and the sometimes smaller stupidities within an episode, it has been pretty good.
I thought the beginning of S1 was excellent. And even with the dip at the end, I think S1 DISCO makes a case for best S1 outside of TOS up to that point (better than TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT). And a couple of the MU eps (Despite Yourself, Wolf Inside) were pretty good, as was the penultimate, War Within, War Without.
The first part of S2 was intruiging with New Eden and If Memory Serves the clear standouts for me. Heck, Perpetual Infinity did not seem as bad the 2nd time.
I thought the beginning of S3 went a long way in climbing out of the rubble of S2's ending. Hope Is You Pt I, People of Earth, Forget Me Not, & Die Trying were an very good start in my book. Kweijan was cool. Ossyria even had some cool potential. The Die Hard stuff at the end was cool. The Burn explanation and Vance making an impossible proposal to Ossyria were real dumb, though.
S4, they struggled a bit more early, but stuck the landing. Finally.
Ups and downs for me. All the way through.
Second, I disagree that the show was OK/good/great and then suddenly was not. It has been much more of a roller coaster for me. Sometimes excellent. Sometimes not. Sometimes just outright dumb. Sometimes all within a single episode.
I have watched & rewatched and am in the process of rewatching again before S5. Generally speaking, I can say the show really only lost me twice: end of S2 plot stupidity and the cause of the Burn in S3.
Don't get me wrong, there have been frustrations. Silly things in episodes I otherwise liked. The hokey-ness of the light years away Burnham/Sarek mind-meld in Binary & Lethe. Landry stupidly letting the tardigrade out in Butcher's Knife.
Sometimes, The cosmic level stupidity was too much. No one caring about Nahn possibly suffocating to death whilst Burnham has angst about offing Ariam in Daedalus. Or the explanation for the Burn.
Sometimes, the show has someone explain away the stupidity. Burnham justifying the galactically stupid decision to not simply jump away at the end if Valley of Shadows. Or Georgiou telling us how smart the plan was after the improbable 2 v 20 battle on the Charon succeeds after 1 shot from tiny Discovery rattles the whole city-sized ship (except Burnham & Georgiou, of course). Yes, good plan! It was absurd.
I mean, if huge plot stupidity is a problem for you, then the end of the MU, S2, and the Burn explanation are a problem. The S1 finale does not make much sense either. To me at least.
But outside of that, and the mostly terrible fight scenes, and the sometimes smaller stupidities within an episode, it has been pretty good.
I thought the beginning of S1 was excellent. And even with the dip at the end, I think S1 DISCO makes a case for best S1 outside of TOS up to that point (better than TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT). And a couple of the MU eps (Despite Yourself, Wolf Inside) were pretty good, as was the penultimate, War Within, War Without.
The first part of S2 was intruiging with New Eden and If Memory Serves the clear standouts for me. Heck, Perpetual Infinity did not seem as bad the 2nd time.
I thought the beginning of S3 went a long way in climbing out of the rubble of S2's ending. Hope Is You Pt I, People of Earth, Forget Me Not, & Die Trying were an very good start in my book. Kweijan was cool. Ossyria even had some cool potential. The Die Hard stuff at the end was cool. The Burn explanation and Vance making an impossible proposal to Ossyria were real dumb, though.
S4, they struggled a bit more early, but stuck the landing. Finally.
Ups and downs for me. All the way through.
So, Star Trek.
Because stupidity is often Starfleet's watch word. This is why I'm not harsh in Discovery. The stupidity it does (if I even call it that) is something I've seen in every single Trek series to date.
The series with the most ups-and-downs for me was VOY. If it were totally bad or if I didn't like the concept, I would've stopped watching MUCH sooner than Season 6, but it finally got to the point where I was like, "I can't do this anymore," and stopped watching. What happened with Ron Moore didn't help either, since I considered him my Trek Hero.
One of the advantages of serialized storytelling is that at least you know what you're going to get for that season. So, if you like the story, you'll like the season. If not, you're shit out of luck.
Luckily I've liked every season of DSC. Some things I'd have done differently, but it wasn't anything serious enough to turn me away.
The things I would've done differently? I never would've set the first two seasons 10 years before TOS. I would've gone with the Lost Era. And the issues I've said before about Season 3.
One of the advantages of serialized storytelling is that at least you know what you're going to get for that season. So, if you like the story, you'll like the season. If not, you're shit out of luck.
Luckily I've liked every season of DSC. Some things I'd have done differently, but it wasn't anything serious enough to turn me away.
The things I would've done differently? I never would've set the first two seasons 10 years before TOS. I would've gone with the Lost Era. And the issues I've said before about Season 3.
I agree that DISCO should never have taken place before TOS. (Despite the fact SNW wouldn't occur.) Too many issues happened because of when it was set.
I also don't think making Burnham Spock's adoptive sister was needed. (Although it did give us "Lethe", which finally answered why Sarek and Spock never got along.) It was simply a gimmick to further connect the show to TOS... a gimmick that created more problems than it solved.
Star Trek loves its gimmicks. See Dr. McCoy in TNG as proof.
At least that was just a cameo. Burnham being Spock's sister is plot point used many times.
I'll never understand the hate for the Burn. As I've said it is Trek at it Trekkiest. Orphaned alien child who has psychic powers after life long exposure to an exotic element , unleashes a psionic wave of pain through sub-space rendering dilithium inert.
McCoy was worse.
Preach it!
Totally agreed. For some reason people simplify it down to 'kid crying destroyed the universe', when it's several degrees more clever than that.
See it as it is. A brief passing of the flame and a canny move to legitimise a risky new show.
It's clumsy, but it's nice to see Kelley and the scene does the job it's supposed to do.
It's jarring.
People who think Discovery jumped are living in a House of Pain. I've been wanting to post this ever since I first saw the thread title. Can't resist anymore! 
In a modern context, I agree.
It should be remembered what a risk TNG represented in 1986/7 though. For the vast majority of people, Star Trek was about a specific group of people rather than a wider fictional universe.
I think these days we take for granted that Star Trek shows that aren’t about Kirk etc. can work, but for TNG there was a widespread feeling, both in and out of fandom that the show was going to bomb.
Symbolically, it was important that the old guard were seen to be passing the torch to the new. McCoy was there to legitimise TNG, and in that sense at least, the scene worked then.
In a modern context, of course, it is entirely redundant.
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I think McCoy was a poor choice for such a moment.
I can see your point there, but a LOT of time passed in universe between the Enterprise-A being retired to the Enterprise-D being commissioned. He may have changed his views in that time.
There's also the fact that sometimes just being somewhere that reminds you of good times is enough to bring out such feelings.
(I have done this myself, so I can buy McCoy doing a similar thing.)
There's also the fact that sometimes just being somewhere that reminds you of good times is enough to bring out such feelings.
(I have done this myself, so I can buy McCoy doing a similar thing.)
