I don't want to argue about that. If you know more, I won't contradict you.
When did Chakotay fall into the background?
- Thread starter Admiral Jean-Luc Picard
- Start date
Yes, there's always a risk that characters leave or disappear for different reasons.While frustrating, it's not unusual for a series of 7 years to lose one or more members of the original cast, either because the actor left, or the producers wrote out the character. I do agree that it's frustrating to have a cast of 9 but mostly focus on just 3. This partially continued into Enterprise. Archer, T'Pol, and Trip were the central focus. Reed and Phlox still got stuff to do. Most of the time, Hoshi and Travis just sat on the bridge. At least Hoshi got dialogue.
Mostly it's the actor/actress who wants to quit and then they have to kill off the character or make him/her leave in some way.
But in those cases I find it better to let the character leave for anotyher spaceship, job, mission or whatever. There's always a chance that the actor wants to come back or the series suffer from the absence of the character and they have to persuade the actor to come back.
The classic example and the most funny is the old soap opera "Dallas" where the actor who played Bobby Ewing left so they killed him off.
But the series lost viewers because of that and they persuaded the actor to come back. To save the situation ,they more and less scrapped a whole season of the series by stating the events as "a dream that Bobby's wife had". The scene in which Bobby comes out of the shower one nmorning and hte wife realize that she had only had a dream is the most classic and hilarious scene in the history of television.
But there is also a darker picture, as when stupid producers decide to scrap a character for no acceptable reasons at all.
Such scenarios have made me stop watching series in more cases than the events of Voyager in season 4. Since I find characters very important, changes in the cast can make me lose interest. However, sometimes I can't accept a change, especially when those in charge and the actor/actress are honest when it comes to describing why.
I went through some changes in series like CSI, CSI New York and NCIS, even if I wasn't too fond of those changes. But when main character Gibbs left in NCIS, I lost interest and omnly watch the series occasionally because the stories are still quite good. But NCIS without Gibbs is like a james Bond movie without James Bond.
However, what I can't accept are certain changes which are made becaus of whims and stupidity, like when Kes was dumped or when they dumped the character Brody (played by the same actress who played Tal Celes in VOY) from NCIS New Orleans because one producer didn't find her "****able enough" and replaced her with an unsympatheric character. Thre are other examples as well wich have made me stop watching a series.
Of course some characters got more to do than others in a sereis. In VOY it was obvious that Janeway, Chakotay and maybe Tuvok would have more to do that kes, neelix and The Doctor (as it obviously was planned from the beginning).
But to make such a total change as they did in season 4 was stupid, especially when the other characters were so good. Compare with DS9 where all characters had something to do and all the recurring characters as well.
I didn't watch ENT that long so I can't comment on exactly how they went down to prioritate only three characters. But it's not surprising that it was the same clown college in charge of that series as in VOY.
When I replied to you about my reasons for quitting to watch ENT, I forgot to write that one more reason than those I stated was that I the same people who ruined VOY were in charge of ENT as well.
Really, VOY would have been better off with a smaller primary cast anyways.
Look at 2 of the biggest syndicated shows of the 90s: Hercules and Xena. Both only had TWO main primaries and that was it. Everyone else was secondary. And it worked.
VOY going for the ensemble wasn't necessary, the primaries should have just been Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, the Doctor and maybe Paris. The others should have all been secondaries.
Look at 2 of the biggest syndicated shows of the 90s: Hercules and Xena. Both only had TWO main primaries and that was it. Everyone else was secondary. And it worked.
VOY going for the ensemble wasn't necessary, the primaries should have just been Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, the Doctor and maybe Paris. The others should have all been secondaries.
I don't think this is really comparable. Hercules and Xena are more comparable to shows like The X Files and MaGyver. Star Trek has always been an ensemble show, otherwise you have a new chief engineer every time he or she pops up (TNG S1
).
VOY would have worked fine with better writers and producers.
Look att DS9 which had ten main characters and a lot of recurring characters who all played a great part in the series.
DS9 had the ability to travel anywhere in the established Alpha Quadrant and a fixed setting. VOY didn't.
Look at Farscape, it only had a main cast of 5 or 6 characters for its run.
DS9 got away with it, because it was syndicated. DS9 was also able to have a large recurring cast due to its static space station setting.
VOY had to answer to UPN who said NO to a lot of things. For whatever reason, the producers & writers wanted to focus on "the big 9." They could not afford a cast of 10. Once they decided to add an ex-Borg character, it's why someone had to go.
VOY had a fixed setting, the ship itself and it couldn't have been so hard to come up with some alien planets from time to time.
Why create a series if it isn't given the chance to develope?
As for Farscape, it did at least have 5-6 characters. None of them were dumped or shoved in the background after a few seasons.
Obviously bad luck for VOY. Stuck with the idiots at UPN and Berman's gang who had given their best to TNG and didn't have the ideas or inspiration anymore. The sereis was doomed from the start.
Once again, why create a series if it isn't given the chance to develope?
If they couldn't afford a cast of then, then maybe they shouldn't have added another main character.
I mean, didn't they visit alien worlds frequently?
Scripted TV dramas exist for entertainment. Back in the mid-90's, most shows were still episodic. Shows having story arcs was more of a transition this decade.
Different show, production team, network, studio.
#1 Berman's gang was the same people working on TNG. I don't think they simply ran out of ideas or inspiration. The show wasn't doomed, it had a successful 7-year run. People wanted it to be serialized, but the reality is that it was an episodic show where the episode's plot gets tied off by the end credits, exceptions being two-parters and "Scorpion" / "The Gift," the show's one trilogy as far as I remember.
#2 As state before, there's room for both episodic shows and story arc shows.
#3 Cast changes are very common in long-running shows.
They did, the problem was anytime they hung around the same area for more than 1 episode they got complaints.
The show was honestly rushed into production compared to DS9, didn't get enough time or effort put in to really work stuff out.
Well, they did kill off Zaan and remove Jool and make Sikozu a villain and all...
I think changes are inevitable in any series. But there are other means of changing series than changing the main charatcers. And especially the way it was in Voyager.
I know myself that sometimes, it's hard to come up for stories that include certain charatcers, that said chjaratcers become just "set pieces that talks". I experienced it myself. So I am not that sensitive to it like others. Still, these are proffesional writers and I am not. They should be better than myself in this.
I know myself that sometimes, it's hard to come up for stories that include certain charatcers, that said chjaratcers become just "set pieces that talks". I experienced it myself. So I am not that sensitive to it like others. Still, these are proffesional writers and I am not. They should be better than myself in this.
Yes, they did.
And Voyager managed to do that fine, at least to start with and the Kazon arc was actually good.
[/QUOTE] #1 Berman's gang was the same people working on TNG. I don't think they simply ran out of ideas or inspiration. The show wasn't doomed, it had a successful 7-year run. People wanted it to be serialized, but the reality is that it was an episodic show where the episode's plot gets tied off by the end credits, exceptions being two-parters and "Scorpion" / "The Gift," the show's one trilogy as far as I remember. [/QUOTE]
They started to lose direction in season 3 when they didn't have the Kazon and the Vidiians to bring in from time to time. Season 3 was good but had more bum episodes than season 1 and 2. After season 3, it went downwards.
Scorpion was so-so but I could have lived without The Gift. Lousy episode.
Yes and we could see that in TNG, VOY and especially DS9.
Yes, but seven years aren't exactly a long time period. If we compare with series like NCIS and Law And Order SVU with more than 20 years of existance, it's more likely that certain actors leave during the process. Seven years shouldn't actually be a problem.
Ah, they should have told the UPN hotshots where to go!
That's often the fact when some stupid company have success with a certain series and are trying to squeeze as much as they can out of it for profit.
It happened with NCIS when they came up with NCIS New Orleans which fell apart after two seasons and became a parody. It also happened with Stargate where the stupid fools actually ditched the excellent Stargate Atlantis and came up with the horrible Stargate Universe instead. There are other examples too.
On the contrary we have CSI New York which was the third NCIS series but managed excellent, my favorite among the CSI series. But then came CSI Cyber............
I don't remember that since I only watched Farscape from time to time due to collisions with other events than TV in my life. If it was that way, it was sad.
Last edited:
The quote code got scrambled, so I'll just number my points.
#1 Oh, you enjoyed the Kazon arc too? Nice. You watched first run, yes? What did you think of the S2 finale and summer weight? I spent all summer wondering how will the crew get Voyager back.
#2 Voyager had to move on past Kazon and Vidiian space eventually. Leaving both behind for S3 made sense. That said, I'm guessing you would have liked to have a new recurring bad guy for S3 instead of one-offs? Aside from the departure of Kes, how did the show go downhill?
#3 I loved the "Scorpion" 2-parter, one of the best 2-parters of the show. Is the main objection to "The Gift" being the departure of Kes?
#4 Most TV shows don't go 10 years, let alone 20. For a science-fiction show, 7 years is very much a long run. How many American sci-fi shows can you last that went 7+ years? I can think of Star Trek (TNG, DS9, VOY - 7 each), The Outer Limits (7), The X Files (9 + 2 revival seasons), Stargate SG-1 (10), Smallville (10), and that's honestly all I can think of. Regarding casting, sometimes an actor doesn't want to stick around for 7 years. Other times, the producers and/or writers just get bored with a character or feel it's time to shake up the cast.
#5 Ultimately, UPN were the boss, so if UPN said no to this or that, that was it.
#6 It's show biz, when a successful show is ending, the network's going to push for a spin-off show to fill the void of the one that ended. If it's really a hit, there may be multiple shows going at once.
Quotes can be tricky sometimes.The quote code got scrambled, so I'll just number my points.
I loved the Kazon arc The Kazon were good villains, better than most of the villains Voyger encountered.#1 Oh, you enjoyed the Kazon arc too? Nice. You watched first run, yes? What did you think of the S2 finale and summer weight? I spent all summer wondering how will the crew get Voyager back.
Not to mention that Seska and Culluh were such a beautiful couple!
I remember having to wait six months before being able to watch Basics#2. That was six long months.
Yes, it did make sense that the Kazon and Vidiians were left behind due to Voyager reaching territories inhabited by other species. But many of them weren't that interesting and those in charge made the bad decision to bring in The Borg instead of trying to come up with new, interesting species..
Aside from dumping Kes, the stories were focused on three characters, mostly Seven Of Nine and the other main characters were shoved in the background.
Not to mention bringing in The Borg who were finished already in TNG with characters like Hugh and the Wimp Q....oh sorry, the Borg Queen.
Yes it was!
Besides that, The Gift was a bad episode, thin and unconvincing with that energy-being mumbo jumbo. It looked like the writer wrote it while sitting on the toilet or during a five minute cofffee break.
If they really had to dump Kes, they could have let her go with Zahir in Darkling. That would have been better.
Scorpion was........well OK but I found two-parters like Basics and Future's End much better.
I can't think of any science-fiction shows which have lasted longer than those you mention.
But series like TNG and DS9 could have gone for at least 10 seasons. They were that good and popular too.
A good way to ruin a show is when the big bosses starts to meddle with characters, stories and such.#5 Ultimately, UPN were the boss, so if UPN said no to this or that, that was it.
They should have stuck to counting their **** money instead.
Nothing wrong with multiple shows if the spin-offs are good, like CSI Miami and CSI New York.
But not so good if the spin-off is created without any efforts to make them good and interesting.
Agreed. I loved the Seska Culluh duo, they were a great villainous and very memorable duo.
You had to wait 6 months? Ouch. I remember being 12 and building a 3-deck lego Voyager out of frustration.
Why not bring in the Borg? I feel like that this happened for 3 reasons.
#1 They had all of these sets, costumes, props, makeup left over from First Contact.
#2 They needed a villain who'd make sense for Voyager to run into despite taking these big shortcuts closer to home. Running into the Borg would make sense.
#3 DS9 had the Dominion, so the Borg would make sense as Voyager's big bad.
The Borg up to this point had only been seen in 6 episodes, a flashback on DS9, and 1 film. Why not?
I'm guessing you'd have preferred two things: focus on the ensemble cast and keep Kes around in some capacity? I didn't mind her leaving the show as a regular, but I would have liked her to stick around in a recurring role.
What do you mean by "finished already in TNG?" I liked "I, Borg," and what's so terrible about the Queen?
Well, "The Gift" had two stories to tell, one being the deborgification of Seven and the other being the departure of Kes. Maybe this might have worked better as two episodes instead of two plots in one episode. I actually like how Kes was written out, that contact with Species 8472 "accelerated" the growth of her powers, provoking a cosmic transformation. Honestly, this was a great goodbye to Kes. My frustration is... there was no follow up. I would have loved Kes to return once in a while as this powerful cosmic being. Kes could have been to Voyager what Q was to the Enterprise, but as a being of wisdom instead of chaos.
I prefer cosmic Kes.
I feel like you just didn't like Voyager-Borg. Do I read you wrong?
TNG S8 was on the table back in the day, but the studio and the producers opted to move TNG to the movie theater instead. With DS9 locked into syndication, Voyager was rushed into production to headline UPN. After 6 years, DS9 was renewed for one more season to bow out the show. After TNG and DS9, I guess it made sense to stop at S7 for Voyager too. Come Enterprise, producers and fans just assumed it would go 7 seasons, but I feel like 4 seasons for a sci-fi show is still a good run.
Unfortunately, that's show-biz, the studio/network/streamer is always going to meddle.
I cannot argue with this.
Yes, they were.Agreed. I loved the Seska Culluh duo, they were a great villainous and very memorable duo.
It was a long wait, I truly remember that.You had to wait 6 months? Ouch. I remember being 12 and building a 3-deck lego Voyager out of frustration.
As I wrote, The Borg were finished already in TNG.
Why those shortcuts? Weren't Voyager supposed to be lost on the other side of the galaxy?
If it was all about using already existing villains, then The Dominion would have been a better adversary than The Borg.
The point with The Borg as I see it was that they were already finished in TNG for the following reasons:
If you create an invincible enemy for a story, series or movie, sooner or later you get to the point when "the good guys" have to find a way to defeat that invincible enemy. Most likely they have to use some super weapon, some new technology or some unexpected to do that, which also happened in Best Of Both Worlds.
When the once invincible enemy is defeated and isn't that invincible anymore and on top of that become "humanized" or as I use to say "velourized" which means turns from being invincible, different, dangerous and a serious threat into something almost harmless with human flaws, then the former adversary isn't what it was but just another rather harmless enemy. All that happened when characters like Hugh and The Borg Queen was brought in.
In fact, I find The Founders and the Cardassians more interesting as adversaries than The Borg. The Founders and the Cardassias weren invincible but they were mean, cunning and dangerous in a much more interesting way than The Borg after Best Of Both Worlds.
Kes should have remained in the series as she was in seasons 1-3 but with a prolonged lifespan. She was a great character. Unfortunately she wasn't just wasted and dumped but destroyed in the most diabolical way.
As for finished, see my comment above about what happens when a mysterious, dangerous and invincible adversary cease to be mysterious, dangerous and invincible.
As for The Borg Queen, she was supposed to be some sort of "leader" for that robot-like collective with one mind and instead she was whimping around Picard, an ordinary human Starfleet Captain like a lovesick schoolgirl in First Contact. Compare that to the Female Founder who was relly scary up till the end of the Dominion War.
To be honest, all that "cosmic" mumbo-jumbo was nothing but character destruction and definitely not a "great goodbye". Kes was a great character as she was in seasons 1-3 and the idiots in charge ruined all that.
I prefer cosmic Kes.
No, you don't.
Stupid moves, all of them.
Both TNG and DS9 could have gone for at least three seasons more.
As for TNG, the serie episodes were much, much better than the movies. None of the movies were actually good. Generations could have been great if not for the destruction of Captain Kirk. First Contact and Insurrection were like "meh!", quite mediocre and tha one with Shinzon as the villain was terrible with the destruction of Data as the final nail in the coffin for TNG. However, I must state that they were all better than the recent NuTrek movies.
Considering the information on VOY here, it was doomed from the start due to lack of interest and inspiration from those in charge and downright sabotage from UPN. Maybe we should be happy that it was so good for at least three seasons.
If the greedy bastards in charge of UPN have had brains instead of wallets in their heads and allowed more creativity to those who work with the series, maybe we would have had better series than we had.Unfortunately, that's show-biz, the studio/network/streamer is always going to meddle.
Well, we do agree on something which is good!I cannot argue with this.
I don't actually think Borg on First Contact and early Voyager was bad. Unity was a good episode and I generally like "Scorpion", although I find it strange that there was stated that"Borg don't investigate" when it was doing just that in some TNG episodes (and later Voyager too). It was when the Borg started to exhibit particular interest in Seven of Nine I found it bad).
Why was it odd for the Borg to have interest in Seven? From the Borg's POV, Seven is the perfect spy. Let he live on Voyager and learn about humanity, Starfleet, and the Federation. "Dark Frontier" basically alludes to this. After "Dark Frontier," it's suggested that Voyager was left alone for Seven's sake so long as they stayed out of the Borg's way.
While it may be true in - universe, making Seven even more important didn't do Voyager any good.
Similar threads
