When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

[Luther Sloan]

See. That's just the thing guys. There is no evidence other than your personal scientific viewpoint that it is what it says it is on the show. You can say the transporter uses blue cotton candy to fuel the transporter to your blue in the face. It is not going to change what the show actually tells us about the transporter. You can twist the meaning of the episode to fit your theory all you want. But at the end of the day... your theory is just that. A theory; and nothing more because it isn't based on what the show has presented to us.

Honestly, do you really think that the issue of the transporter being a copy machine wouldn't have been seriously addressed within 200 years of use. That's a long time. We have had the transporter for 6 different series, and 11 films and none of them have brought up any concrete evidence (in the different series) that proves your theory in any way.

 

[Pauln6]

I think the only evidence we have is that 23rd century scientifically-minded people have no issue with being transported. As far as they are conncerned the same DNA and same memories and same bodily experiences = same person. The soul doesn't have to be transferrable if the soul is entirely self-contained in a person's body - or are we suggesting that Riker 2 has no soul?

That approach is entirely different from saying it is the same individual stepping off the platform. It and it isn't. And sometimes it just isn't.

 

[DonIago]

Perhaps the Trek folks are fully aware of what the transporter does and accept the theoretical/philosophical consequences, given that otherwise they couldn't be in Starfleet in the first place because they wouldn't go on all those missions via transporter that we see them undertake.

Given that the majority of them seem to be at least agnostic, would it be such a stretch to assume that their understanding of the soul is somewhat different from how the majority of people seem to view it these days?

If I was given the opportunity to see the universe, and the only cost was that according to one argument I'd be being replaced by a clone who resembled me in every possible way and that I'd have no memory of dying/being replaced...i.e. that from my perspective it would be a seamless transition...that's what exploration is all about, going out there despite the risks.

 

[Luther Sloan]

You see, T'girl, when you have two dvds/Rikers in a room, if one of them is the original, the other one is, by definition, a copy. What they can't be is two originals (because there was only one original dvd as there was only one original Riker who stepped on the transporter platform).

Riker1 is the original and Riker2 a copy - meaning the transporter works by creating copies and - normally - killing the original (who can be retrieved alive).

Pauln6:

So what happens if someone uses a science fictional device to travel back in time and he runs into himself? Is the other person a copy then?

In other words: This is a clear example of two originals existing next to one another with one not being a copy. And it was no different in TNG's "Second Chances" either. Except the fictional device was a transporter and not a time machine.

Further, I wouldn't put much weight on what these persons say with regards the transporter - these persons kill any transported person as a matter of course; of course their views will excuse this by claiming that the original and the copy are interchangeable; it's OK to kill the original if you make a copy first.

Well, I imagine these characters are pretty darn smart. Especially seeing they probably studied transporter theory and you didn't. There has been no mention by any Doctors or Transporter Operators that you die and come back as a copy after transport.

 

[Pauln6]

Well, I imagine these characters are pretty darn smart. Especially seeing they probably studied transporter theory and you didn't. There has been no mention by any Doctors or Transporter Operators that you die and come back as a copy after transport.

I don't think they need to spell it out because they all know it. Having all your matter broken down into energy is pretty much lethal.

 

[Luther Sloan]

I think the only evidence we have is that 23rd century scientifically-minded people have no issue with being transported. As far as they are conncerned the same DNA and same memories and same bodily experiences = same person.

Pauln6:

But see, that's not evidence. It's still just speculation on your part. Nowhere has this point ever been addressed in any detail or length within any of the series or films. In fact, in Enterprise's "Daedalus" they strongly suggest that your theory is not true at all.

Here's the link again to the scene I posted before (in case you missed it)...

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/67546

 

[3D Master]

Well, I imagine these characters are pretty darn smart. Especially seeing they probably studied transporter theory and you didn't. There has been no mention by any Doctors or Transporter Operators that you die and come back as a copy after transport.

I don't think they need to spell it out because they all know it. Having all your matter broken down into energy is pretty much lethal.

Not if your matter stays intact at the same time.

 

[Luther Sloan]

 

[Luther Sloan]

Well, I imagine these characters are pretty darn smart. Especially seeing they probably studied transporter theory and you didn't. There has been no mention by any Doctors or Transporter Operators that you die and come back as a copy after transport.

I don't think they need to spell it out because they all know it. Having all your matter broken down into energy is pretty much lethal.

Yes. But then how come the minds of Sisko, Dax, Obrien, and Kira ended up in the Doctor's spy program in "Our Man Bashir" if they don't have a physically formed brains yet during transport?

How come we can follow and see Reg's point of view during the entire transport process?

Why doesn't Reg who is phobic about transporters bring this important point of discussion up?

Why do the prophets treat Sisko as the one and only being?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

double post

 

[ProtoAvatar]

See. That's just the thing guys. There is no evidence other than your personal scientific viewpoint that it is what it says it is on the show. You can say the transporter uses blue cotton candy to fuel the transporter to your blue in the face. It is not going to change what the show actually tells us about the transporter. You can twist the meaning of the episode to fit your theory all you want. But at the end of the day... your theory is just that. A theory; and nothing more because it isn't based on what the show has presented to us.

Honestly, do you really think that the issue of the transporter being a copy machine wouldn't have been seriously addressed within 200 years of use. That's a long time. We have had the transporter for 6 different series, and 11 films and none of them have brought up any concrete evidence (in the different series) that proves your theory in any way.

"Second chances" proves that the transporter makes copies - it's the only explanation that fits the facts.
Read my post this time:

"Yes - in order to copy a human being, one needs to have all information that describes this person (down to the quantum level, apparently) and one needs to have a huge amount of energy to 'build' the copy from scratch.

In 'Second chances' the transporter did exactly that. Riker1 AND Riker2.
Riker1 and Riker2 may be identical, physically and mentally - but they're different persons - twins, if you will. This becomes evident when you consider that one is on the Enterprise and one in a cardassian prison. This becomes evident when you put them in the same room and see that they're two distinct persons, not one person.

And, given the incredible precision work and huge energies needed to copy a human, a random phenomenon can't explain the EXACT copying of a person satisfactorily.
A random phenomenon would result in two puddles of organic goo that were once Riker.

The only way the transporter could copy Riker so perfectly is if the transporter is designed to copy people, if it works this way"

And about what is a 'copy' and why was the 'copy machine' issue not adressed:

Very well, let's start from the beginning of the causal chain:

First, let's define the item:
I define the item as a dvd with the necessay information on it.
As such, the original dvd will be the one recorded when the band plays in a studio.

All the other dvds will be copies of it and copies of copies, they are obviously not the original one.

You see, T'girl, when you have two dvds/Rikers in a room, if one of them is the original, the other one is, by definition, a copy. What they can't be is two originals (because there was only one original dvd as there was only one original Riker who stepped on the transporter platform).

Riker1 is the original and Riker2 a copy - meaning the transporter works by creating copies and - normally - killing the original (who can be retrieved alive).

PS -All LaForge says is that the two 'dvds' contain the same information (the same 'complete pattern'). And both 'dvds' - the original and the copy - are, of course, 'real', none is imaginary.
Further, I wouldn't put much weight on what these persons say with regards the transporter - these persons kill any transported person as a matter of course; of course their views will excuse this by claiming that the original and the copy are interchangeable; it's OK to kill the original if you make a copy first.

 

[3D Master]

"Second chances" proves that the transporter makes copies - it's the only explanation that fits the facts.

Nope. Second chances had them create a SECOND beam, in the same quantum superposition state that allows the body to be both patternless energy and the original body at the same time, this SECOND beam allowed the body to be a SECOND original body, the original body and energy all at the same time.

This SECOND beam gets reflected and the body gets rematerialized on the planet.

No copies in normal operation required.

 

[Luther Sloan]

"Second chances" proves that the transporter makes copies - it's the only explanation that fits the facts.
Read my post this time:

Uh, yeah. I already read that post, man. It doesn't hold up to the other scenes and questions I raised (of which you have side stepped). I mean, it comes down to your scientific viewpoint versus what the various different series has shown to us. I mean, you wouldn't even know about the transporter if it wasn't for Star Trek. However, your theory is really not a part of the Star Trek universe. You can't just look at one episode and cling to it like static cling as your sole example. You have to look at all of the series as a cohesive whole and whether or not your theory makes sense within the confines of the characters, the 200 years of the transporters being in use, and all of the pieces of the puzzle that the transporter has revealed to us (already).

So far you haven't taken into account that the mind of person does actually exist within the energy portion of the transfer. Which was shown to us in "Our Man Bashir". And that's just one example!

 

[Pauln6]

But then how come the minds of Sisko, Dax, Obrien, and Kira ended up in the Doctor's spy program in "Our Man Bashir" if they don't have a physically formed brains yet during transport?

How come we can follow and see Reg's point of view during the entire transport process?

Why doesn't Reg who is phobic about transporters bring this important point of discussion up?

Why do the prophets treat Sisko as the one and only being?

I don't think its them. It's a computer simulation of their memories that appears to be them in the same way that the EMH is a very complex program who appears to be a 'real' person and in the same way that Ilia probe had the original's memories and Korby did too etc. They are computer simulations, information from which can be fed back into the system and re-integrated with a physical form. We the viewers can only see what is on screen; we don't know exactly how holodeck programs think, only how they 'appear' to think.

Similarly, just because Reg appears to be conscious while being transported doesn't mean he is. More likely we are seeing how his brain perceives things the instant that he begins to dematerialise/rematerialise. While he's in transport he has no brain and no sensory organs.

I think for me it boils down to one thing. How can a human still be human if he has no DNA, no brain, no sensory organs, no organs of any kind in fact? In all seriousness, can anybody offer up some kind of explanation.

The prophets treat Sisko as one being because there is always only one Sisko with the same DNA and the same memories therefore he is one being.

 

[Pauln6]

Second chances had them create a SECOND beam, in the same quantum superposition state that allows the body to be both patternless energy and the original body at the same time, this SECOND beam allowed the body to be a SECOND original body, the original body and energy all at the same time.

This SECOND beam gets reflected and the body gets rematerialized on the planet.

No copies in normal operation required.

Schrodinger's cat makes noooo sense to me. It certainly doesn't help me understand transporters.

In this case the second 'original body' is formed out of energy that was not from the 'original' body. All we seem to be doing is placing our own slightly varying definitions on 'original' and 'copy'.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

"Second chances" proves that the transporter makes copies - it's the only explanation that fits the facts.

Nope. Second chances had them create a SECOND beam, in the same quantum superposition state that allows the body to be both patternless energy and the original body at the same time, this SECOND beam allowed the body to be a SECOND original body, the original body and energy all at the same time.

This SECOND beam gets reflected and the body gets rematerialized on the planet.

No copies in normal operation required.

So: you have a 'beam of energy' - whatever that actually means - in 'fuzzy' quantum mechanical form - aka superposition of states - and you COPY this beam, making a SECOND identical 'fuzzy' beam - AKA A COPY.

Just because you use the word 'superposition' doesn't make your 'both are originals' position any less nonsensical.

And don't even think of suggesting that the Rikers are two superposed states of a particle - that blatantly contradicts quantum mechanics.
If that were true, the second one Riker changes even in the slightest, the second Riker must disappear (wave function collapse, as per quantum mechanics). This does NOT happen - aka Riker1 and Riker2 are distict persons.

"Second chances" proves that the transporter makes copies - it's the only explanation that fits the facts.
Read my post this time:

Uh, yeah. I already read that post, man. It doesn't hold up to the other scenes and questions I raised (of which you have side stepped). I mean, it comes down to your scientific viewpoint versus what the various different series has shown to us. I mean, you wouldn't even know about the transporter if it wasn't for Star Trek. However, your theory is really not a part of the Star Trek universe. You can't just look at one episode and cling to it like static cling as your sole example. You have to look at all of the series as a cohesive whole and whether or not your theory makes sense within the confines of the characters, the 200 years of the transporters being in use, and all of the pieces of the puzzle that the transporter has revealed to us (already).

So far you haven't taken into account that the mind of person does actually exist within the energy portion of the transfer. Which was shown to us in "Our Man Bashir". And that's just one example!

Your 'transporting is like driving a car while being energy' theory is incompatible with 'Second chances', Luther Sloan.
You are guilty of ignoring an entire episode.

I, on the other hand, can easily find explanations for being conscious during parts of the transporting process - you're a new born, being made out of energy, having the memories of your dead original, experiencing your first moments of consciousness while waiting for the transporter to turn you into matter.

 

[Luther Sloan]

I think for me it boils down to one thing. How can a human still be human if he has no DNA, no brain, no sensory organs, no organs of any kind in fact? In all seriousness, can anybody offer up some kind of explanation.

Pauln6:

Well, whether or not you believe in the good book: The Bible actually says that the body has a soul (i.e. mind), spirit body, and a physical body. It is very possible that if the transporter saves memory patterns (like in "Our Man Bashir"), then it is quite possible that the mind takes the spirit body along during the process while the physical body is being de-materialized and then re-materialized. This would suggest why we were able to see Reg have a body during the transport process. We were looking at his spirit body.

I mean, even in life after death experiences we see that the mind and the spirit (or spirit body) doesn't leave the physical body right away.

 

[Pauln6]

I, on the other hand, can easily find explanations for being conscious during parts of the transporting process - you're a new born, being made out of energy, having the memories of your dead original, experiencing your first moments of consciousness while waiting for the transporter to turn you into matter.

Ok, so what reasons can you come up with to explain how a person is 'conscious' during transport? As far as I can tell, the 'person' only exists as a set of instructions to rebuild them at the other end.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

I, on the other hand, can easily find explanations for being conscious during parts of the transporting process - you're a new born, being made out of energy, having the memories of your dead original, experiencing your first moments of consciousness while waiting for the transporter to turn you into matter.

Ok, so what reasons can you come up with to explain how a person is 'conscious' during transport? As far as I can tell, the 'person' only exists as a set of instructions to rebuild them at the other end.

True - and then, you are unconscious. But, 'at the other end', the new born is initially built out of 'energy' - and that's when he's conscious, while not being standard matter.

 

[T'Girl]

"Second chances" proves that the transporter makes copies - it's the only explanation that fits the facts."

Your hypothesis...
1) Doesn't fit the fact of LaForge's statement.
2) Doesn't jib with Barclay's personal experiences.
3) Doesn't jib with Kirk's reaction when two security guard were accidentally beamed into space.
4) Can't be reconciled with the often stated high ethical position of the 24th century Federation.

I define the item as a dvd with the necessay information on it.
As such, the original dvd will be the one recorded when the band plays in a studio.

Except it isn't the "original" anything. It is at best the very first copy, surely you ProtoAvatar would agree that by definition a musical reproduction in any form is not the original music that came from the band.

Similarly would you agree, if the original actual material living substance of the person who walked into transporter was the material living substance of the person who walked away from the beam down point, that meant that it is the person? Not like the person. Not identical to the person. Not genetically indistinguishable from the person. But the person in question?

Riker1 is the original and Riker2 a copy - meaning the transporter works by creating copies and - normally - killing the original

But as I understand your hypothesis, neither Riker 1 nor Riker 2 is a original, the original Riker was murdered/killed by a transporter the very first time he went through one, likely when he was still a child. The original Riker has never been on the Enterprise, so how is Riker 1 the original?

This becomes evident when you consider that one is on the Enterprise and one in a cardassian prison.

How is that germane? During Second Chance when two Rikers rematerialized in two separate places, at that point in time they were the exact same person in every way. But yes, after that point they became two different people. After.

If the transporter does a detailed scan of the original victim and recreates an exact copy at the destination, then why are they destroying/murdering the original victim? If that's the way the device work, okay then scan the original officer, send the copy to the planet (whatever) and then the original officer steps off the transporter platform and goes about his duties.

Can you explain the extra step of killing him?



(Oh and Special Agent Gibbs wants to see the body.)