What's the deal with Saavik?

[SpyOne]

@TrickyDickie
If you prefer to think of Kirk as a guy who wouldn't have sex with a woman who he wasn't married to, I don't feel a need to change your mind.
I don't need to yuck your yum, as the kids apparently say these days.
My main point still holds: women generally found him attractive, and not just physically. If he had asked Yeoman Rand, for example, he probably would have gotten a yes, even though (perhaps even because) he wouldn't ask.
He sees that David has that too, and is simultaneously proud and jealous.

 

[Pauln6]

@TrickyDickie
If he had asked Yeoman Rand, for example, he probably would have gotten a yes, even though (perhaps even because) he wouldn't ask.

Actually no. In Rand's case, he did ask, and she said no. As both characters were written, they placed duty above their feelings and whinged about it when only their minds were unbalanced.

That said , it doesn't change the fact that she wanted to, which is the point you are making. ;-p

 

[Nyotarules]

nowhere could it be inferred that the character of Kirk was a womanizer or one who was interested in casual sexual relationships.

Kirk was not shown in a committed relationship in TOS or any of the movies (minus the Nexus) so even if he was a womaniser or into casual sex...so what?

 

[Gavin70]

I never really got the sense that Kirk was a womaniser or into casual sex. Just that he had a tendency to fall in love easily only to discover that his commitment to Enterprise outweighed his ability to commit to a relationship.

 

[TrickyDickie]

Kirk was not shown in a committed relationship in TOS or any of the movies (minus the Nexus) so even if he was a womaniser or into casual sex...so what?

In my opinion, it just doesn't fit his character as depicted in TOS....including the TOS movies.

In TVH, Spock has this line, describing Kirk:

"He is a man of deep feelings."

In TWOK, we got that he wanted to be around when he could for David growing up. But Carol thought that his career as a starship captain would create a negative influence.

These and other things suggest that he would be unlikely to have casual sex whenever the opportunity presented itself.

 

[XCV330]

Kirk witnessed half the people on the planet he was living on vaporized right in front of him as a teenager. And he certainly seems to have bumped around a lot world to world as a Starfleet brat, never putting down roots, unlike his brother. He might have had trouble committing. Anyway he was married to the Big E.

 

[Nyotarules]

I never really got the sense that Kirk was a womaniser or into casual sex. Just that he had a tendency to fall in love easily only to discover that his commitment to Enterprise outweighed his ability to commit to a relationship.

He was easily infatuated but I would not call it love, since he forgot all about the women once the mission was over. I guess since TOS was not episodic it never dealt with consequences of the characters' actions (TWOK being the exception to the rule).
And being a man who enjoys the company of women does not mean one would not be a good father as well, some people make great parents but lousy partners.

"He is a man of deep feelings"
People of 'deep feelings' can still be womanisers, or have lots of lovers and have deep attachments to their career, friends and colleagues. In Kirk's case his deep feelings were for his ship not even Starfleet. since he was never happy as an Admiral. A person can be uncommitted when it comes to romantic relationships, into casual sex and short term romances etc and still have 'deep feelings,' its about what or who you have deep feelings for. The two are not mutually exclusive, his inability to commit to females and put a large metal ship before any woman would be a therapist dream patient come true.

 

[Pauln6]

This begs the question, was his self imposed ban on dating subordinates sensible? If he'd found the right woman among his crew, could they have made it work? He's not Picard. Kirk sends Helen Noel into danger in a heartbeat.

 

[TrickyDickie]

he forgot all about the women once the mission was over

We don't know what he thought, because the producers didn't follow up on those plot elements in later episodes.

This begs the question, was his self imposed ban on dating subordinates sensible?

I took it as being more Starfleet frowning on fraternization with subordinates in the chain of command.

 

[Pauln6]

I took it as being more Starfleet frowning on fraternization with subordinates in the chain of command.

It's unclear because it only seems to apply to the captain so it might be self imposed. We see officers of different rank dating and marrying while serving on the same ship. Kirk mentions that other crewmen are ' allowed ' to notice Rand.

Chekov was technically Landon's superior officer.

 

[TrickyDickie]

It's unclear because it only seems to apply to the captain so it might be self imposed. We see officers of different rank dating and marrying while serving on the same ship. Kirk mentions that other crewmen are ' allowed ' to notice Rand.

Yeah, it might only be a prohibition where the captain is concerned.

I've been thinking about the whole casual sex issue and whereas we have HIV, HPV, and other issues to concern us in the here-and-now, that may all be resolved by the 23rd century.

On the lighter side, maybe they solved it by everyone having some kind of a greeble on an inner thigh that sounds a loud alarm if disease is detected.

Could get a bit awkward, though.

 

[Pauln6]

Yeah, it might only be a prohibition where the captain is concerned.

I've been thinking about the whole casual sex issue and whereas we have HIV, HPV, and other issues to concern us in the here-and-now, that may all be resolved by the 23rd century.

On the lighter side, maybe they solved it by everyone having some kind of a greeble on an inner thigh that sounds a loud alarm if disease is detected.

Could get a bit awkward, though.

Space herpes can be a bitch!

Seriously though, incompatible bacterial biomes leaking out in breath or saliva, or sweat would be far more of a concern than STIs.

 

[FormerLurker]

Space herpes can be a bitch!

Just ask the crew in Ice Pirates!

Seriously though, incompatible bacterial biomes leaking out in breath or saliva, or sweat would be far more of a concern than STIs.

To use one of the theories regarding the origins of many STIs, incompatible bacterial biomes could create a whole slew of new ones.

 

[JKM]

He was easily infatuated but I would not call it love, since he forgot all about the women once the mission was over....

Maybe that was with Spock's help, sneaking up on him when he was unconscious and making him forget.

 

[Pauln6]

Maybe that was with Spock's help, sneaking up on him when he was unconscious and making him forget.

The memories may fade but the rash remains.

 

[Nyotarules]

I took it as being more Starfleet frowning on fraternization with subordinates in the chain of command.

An organisation which sends mainly single, sentient human males into space on 5 year missions and expects them to be celibate needs to change the rules. No wonder in TOS the other aliens refused to join.

 

[Gavin70]

An organisation which sends mainly single, sentient human males into space on 5 year missions and expects them to be celibate needs to change the rules. No wonder in TOS the other aliens refused to join.

There's nothing that indicates a requirement for celibacy. Just rules on fraternising with subordinates. Which really only impacts the Captain and 1st Officer as the only ones without other crew at the same rank. And if it's anything like military fraternisation rules it's more about ensuring that the chain of command isn't compromised and there is no appearance of unfairness or improper use of rank for personal gain. So relationships (even between a captain and an ensign) might not be prohibited, but if the ensign that's sleeping with the captain gets a sudden series of promotions, there would be questions asked.

 

[Nyotarules]

There's nothing that indicates a requirement for celibacy. Just rules on fraternising with subordinates. Which really only impacts the Captain and 1st Officer as the only ones without other crew at the same rank. And if it's anything like military fraternisation rules it's more about ensuring that the chain of command isn't compromised and there is no appearance of unfairness or improper use of rank for personal gain. So relationships (even between a captain and an ensign) might not be prohibited, but if the ensign that's sleeping with the captain gets a sudden series of promotions, there would be questions asked.

In real life that is understandable for humans but operating Federation Starfleet under totally human rules went out the window in TNG. The Andorian Imperial army had fraternisation (Shran/Talas) and due to the 7 year itch Vulcan would see the logic having couples on the ship. I doubt they all dumped their cultural norms when the Federation was formed.

 

[TrickyDickie]

I agree that even in the here-and-now if it can be done reasonably, with no abuse of any kind, let them alone about it.

 

[johnnybear]

HPV is a new one on me??
JB