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What's the deal with Saavik?

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I love every part of Saavik's unofficially official background. I normally loathe half breeds since without genetic engineering to explain them, they're just too allegorical for my tastes. However, Vulcan and Romulan make perfect sense. I was mildly annoyed with Nimoy directing Curtis as such a hard core Vulcan and mildly annoyed that Meyer didn't give her a chance to show her range in STVI. Saavik's betrayal and redemption could have made her far more popular among fans, not less.

In some ways, I can see shades of the Saavik we should have got in Jaylah. Their backgrounds are similar. Featuring Saavik on Nimbus with a Romulan ambassador, giving us a flashback to Hellguard, and laying the groundwork for an epiphany in STVI ...

Why was Saavik not in STV again?
 
To row one's boat merrily is not logical.

Maybe she had a point....

Row3.jpg
 
It is strange that there was no thought to include Saavik in STV.
I'd imagine that the thinking was more or less "We have Spock back -- what do we need another Vulcan for?"
there is nothing in the movie itself that supports Saavik being half-Romulan.
I dunno. I think her opening crying at Spock's funeral certainly supports that she's not quite a typical Vulcan.
 
I dunno. I think her opening crying at Spock's funeral certainly supports that she's not quite a typical Vulcan.

Crying does not necessarily equal Romulan. Ok, she's not a "typical" Vulcan. Like I said earlier: she's just young and undisciplined, not that there's anything wrong with that. With no other information presented in the film going from "crying" to "Romulan" is a bit of a stretch, IMO.
 
Crying does not necessarily equal Romulan. Ok, she's not a "typical" Vulcan. Like I said earlier: she's just young and undisciplined, not that there's anything wrong with that. With no other information presented in the film going from "crying" to "Romulan" is a bit of a stretch, IMO.

I think basically Meyer wasn't a fan of Vulcan stoicism. I actually dislike Valeris because she seems arrogant, mischievous, fearful, and defiant and she, as far as we know, is a full Vulcan. He possibly disliked Curtis because Nimoy went the other way.

Saavik is half Romulan because that background gives us a rich vein of solid gold story potential. Don't squander that!
 
I think basically Meyer wasn't a fan of Vulcan stoicism.
I completely agree on that score, entirely. What I don't get it, instead of trashing the idea of a Vulcan, if he didn't like them so much, why have any in the movie, besides Spock? He seems to have had been given a very heavy hand in determining stuff like that, for having been a newcomer to the franchise and the project. I can only imagine that since Vulcans were cheap aliens, he really didn't have more options beyond that, if he wanted to have aliens in it ...
 
I completely agree on that score, entirely. What I don't get it, instead of trashing the idea of a Vulcan, if he didn't like them so much, why have any in the movie, besides Spock? He seems to have had been given a very heavy hand in determining stuff like that, for having been a newcomer to the franchise and the project. I can only imagine that since Vulcans were cheap aliens, he really didn't have more options beyond that, if he wanted to have aliens in it ...
I think Ian McLean suggested that Saavik was an evolution from Xon, and Valeris would have been Saavik if Kirstie Alley had been up for it.
 
Did not know that. Still, had she not been performed by Kristie Alley (whom I really only know as Saavik) I don't think I would've cared for her so much. Like, if Robin Curtis had played her, instead. The whole Anti-Vulcan Vulcan theme with her just didn't clique with me. I mean ... she understands the use of swear words, seemingly, but she doesn't understand humour? None of it works, really, except for the fact that it's coming from a decent actress who's unusually attractive, as actresses go. I mean, I understand that she's on the side of the angels and all that, but I don't like how she was handled, otherwise.
 
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Crying does not necessarily equal Romulan.
Well, I didn't say that it did. I said that it made her "not quite a typical Vulcan." But certainly the half-Romulan background she was nearly officially given fits with the characterization that we saw in the movie.
 
^^^
Nothing seen in the movie is dependent upon Saavik having anything other than a Vulcan background. Nor is there anything that suggests that she is anything but a Vulcan. As far as I'm concerned the romulan thing is just stuff in the novels and fandom speculation until we see it on-screen.
 
I think Ian McLean suggested that Saavik was an evolution from Xon, and Valeris would have been Saavik if Kirstie Alley had been up for it.
I doubt that. Xon was Gene's creation. Just because they concocted another young Vulcan doesn't mean much, especially given Savik was on the command track and David was going to step into Spock's shoes as the science officer (as per the Genesis Project script).
 
I doubt that. Xon was Gene's creation. Just because they concocted another young Vulcan doesn't mean much, especially given Savik was on the command track and David was going to step into Spock's shoes as the science officer (as per the Genesis Project script).
That would have been interesting. A switch in the dynamic.
 
I doubt that. Xon was Gene's creation. Just because they concocted another young Vulcan doesn't mean much, especially given Savik was on the command track and David was going to step into Spock's shoes as the science officer (as per the Genesis Project script).

I meant rather that the idea of a young Vulcan struggling to socialise with the humans to keep one in the franchise after Spock's death. When they started, they didn't know Nimoy would change his mind and want to return.

I didn't know David would have been Spock's replacement at the science station, although since he isn't Starfleet, wouldn't they still need a science officer?
 
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I'm not rooting for a relationship between Saavik and David Marcus, but I like that scene and I like that it acknowledges there's an attraction.

They are both young, fit, and attractive. She is having some issues with controlling her emotions, and he .... Well the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

I know a guy who is just really successful at casual relationships with women. Or he was before he gave it up and got married. Something about him attracted women, often women he'd just met.
Old girlfriends would arrange to introduce him to friends they thought could use some casual sex. Often quite openly: I recall a phone call where one of his exes was coming into town for the weekend and wanted to know if he'd be free to go out with her friend.
It was bizarre.

Anyway, Jim Kirk seemed to have that mojo going for him: generally if he enquired if a woman would like to have sex with him the answer he got was "yes".
And he sees that David has the same thing, because Saavik appears to have noticed it.
(It also plays into a main theme of the movie: Jim Kirk feels old. Saavik didn't lock on to him, but instead to the younger version.)
 
Jim Kirk seemed to have that mojo going for him: generally if he enquired if a woman would like to have sex with him the answer he got was "yes".

There is quite a lot of subjective perception in all of this. Abrams and company amped things up with Kirk in the new movies. Did we ever see Kirk in bed with a woman in TOS? No. Some may argue that the only reason that we didn't was because of the network censors and what they would not have allowed. Well, that's a bit of a narrow interpretation, because in the original concept as submitted and in the Writer's Guide, nowhere could it be inferred that the character of Kirk was a womanizer or one who was interested in casual sexual relationships. Some may then toss it back that Roddenberry knew where he stood and what would cause an objection if he had included it. The problem with that is the fact that Gene was very conflicted. On the one hand, he wanted to be true to a relationship, but on the other he had urges that would not leave him alone. Who is to say, in his 'heart-of-hearts' what he really intended Kirk to be like? Might he have wanted, deep down, for Kirk to be free of those kinds of urges that he had? It's possible.

Any episode, movie, etc, is just bits and pieces of a character's life. If something is not shown onscreen, then it is completely open to subjective interpretation.

I was born 14 days after 'City' was first shown. TOS was a part of my life right from the beginning, because my older half-brothers watched it in its first run. I grew up with it.

Granted that I had parents who were very controlling, and I also had a very twisted version of Catholicism jammed down my throat from age 7 to age 10, TOS was still a very big influence on my life.

My take on Kirk's character has always been that he is a very deep-feeling person. His need to make a difference is why he chose to be a starship captain, but the nature of the position brings loneliness. He empathizes. He recognizes loneliness in others. He responds to it. It draws him.

Holding someone close and kissing does not necessarily mean that the next step is hopping into the sack. That is a very subjective assumption. People have a tendency to let their imaginations run wild. It gets them into a rut. (No pun intended.) It becomes a habit to interpret something the same way every time that they see something that seems similar. That's a mistake. It's a mistake that's also made by a lot of professionals in the field of psychology. They see X number of cases that do follow the same pattern and pretty soon they lose the objectivity to accurately identify that case that comes along that is genuinely different from what they have seen up to that point.

My take on Kirk....at least in TOS form....is that he is the kind of deep-feeling person for whom casual sex would be contrary to his nature. From that interpretation, I can identify with him and respect the character. While I enjoy the new movies, I can't identify as much with how the character of Kirk is portrayed.. I can respect him as a human being who is different than TOS Kirk, but I don't have as much in common with him as I do with TOS Kirk as I subjectively chose to interpret him based on what was onscreen.
 
My take on Kirk....at least in TOS form....is that he is the kind of deep-feeling person for whom casual sex would be contrary to his nature. From that interpretation, I can identify with him and respect the character. While I enjoy the new movies, I can't identify as much with how the character of Kirk is portrayed.. I can respect him as a human being who is different than TOS Kirk, but I don't have as much in common with him as I do with TOS Kirk as I subjectively chose to interpret him based on what was onscreen.

There is the scene in Wink of an Eye wherein we see Kirk and Deela in Kirk's quarters. Kirk is sitting on the edge of his bunk pulling a boot back and Deela is in the background brushing out her hair. While we don't see what they'd been up to the implication is fairly obvious, IMO.
 
There is the scene in Wink of an Eye wherein we see Kirk and Deela in Kirk's quarters. Kirk is sitting on the edge of his bunk pulling a boot back and Deela is in the background brushing out her hair. While we don't see what they'd been up to the implication is fairly obvious, IMO.

I look at the series as a whole, when I interpret Kirk's character. I consider the fact that there were a whole bunch of different writers, producers, directors, etc. It wasn't just the vision of one person with no other input whatsoever.

In-universe, when we don't see that kind of thing regularly, a case could even be made for the idea that there is another factor at work. We don't know all that much about Deela. We only know what was depicted onscreen. Did she have something about her that exerted an influence on Kirk and made him do something that he otherwise wouldn't do?

Consider Elaan's tears, for example.
 
Season one Kirk is definitely not a womaniser. We hear he was a shy bookworm who almost married his Academy girlfriend (possibly Carol), and had a fling with an older woman (Ruth).

particularly in seasons two and three we later learn that he had several short term relationships that always gave way to his career (Areel Shaw, Janet Wallace, Janice Lester).

We also see that he's lonely, prone to romanticism, and quick to fall in love (Edith, Miramanee, Rayna) but that he won't allow himself a relationship with a subordinate (Janice Rand, Helen Noel, Ann Mulhall), although one wonders where he was going with real world Marlena).

Finally, and this is where his reputation comes from, he's willing to take one for the team to obtain information or stall for time (Sylvia, Miri, Odona, Deela, Shanna, Mirror Marlena).

Overall, it's a mixed bag.
 
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