I have to disagree with a lot of you. I didn't really see Chakotay as some kind of rebel freedom fighter terrorist. He was in the Maquis because of a morale/philosophical disagreement with how Starfleet handled the Cardassians. He was actually a very good Starfleet officer and once the two crews combined into a Starfleet crew then he was prepared to accept being a Starfleet officer again. I also thought that the Native American aspect was pretty different and I enjoyed it.
What's the beef with Chakotay?
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The problem was that Beltran never took the job seriously in the first place (him and Garrett Wang) and he was actually phoning it in nearly from day one. Yes, he was sidelined and grew bitter but he never tried to make it better for himself and the sidelining was partly because he wasn't putting in much effort in the first place.
That, and the writers didn't know what to do with him. They never bothered differentiating between him and Janeway enough for there to be a real conflict or dichotomy between them.
That, and the writers didn't know what to do with him. They never bothered differentiating between him and Janeway enough for there to be a real conflict or dichotomy between them.
I thought Beltran was good much of the time, and he really sprang to life in the tense action sequences, even if there wasn't a lot of physical activity going on. You can hear it just in his vocal delivery in some scenes. But if he was stuck as the reacting character in dialogue scenes, he sometimes dropped into a monotone when all he had to do was say lines like "Aye, Captain", "What do you mean?", or "Of course." But he hated "Shattered", where he was the primary character.
Chakotay doesn't deserve the hate he gets.
I see a lot of people talking about how Chakotay was Janeway's "yes man" but let me ask you this: did Riker ever disobey Picard's orders? How many times does Riker argue with Picard after a decision has been made?
What are Spock's hobbies? What does he like to eat? As an exercise, try to describe Spock's personality, without mentioning his job, or the fact that he's a Vulcan. Now, it may seem like I'm trying to raise Chakotay up, by putting Riker and Spock down, so I'll say for a record that I think both Riker and Spock are excellent characters.
But, what do they have that Chakotay doesn't?
I see a lot of people talking about how Chakotay was Janeway's "yes man" but let me ask you this: did Riker ever disobey Picard's orders? How many times does Riker argue with Picard after a decision has been made?
If your answer was "never" or "not often" then would it be fair to say that Riker is Picard's "yes man?" Why the double standard? Doesn't a good first officer carry out his captain's orders? People also criticize Chakotay for being "bland," but since that's such a subjective statement, it's hard to quantify. What measure is "bland?" For example, one could argue that Spock's character is "bland."
What are Spock's hobbies? What does he like to eat? As an exercise, try to describe Spock's personality, without mentioning his job, or the fact that he's a Vulcan. Now, it may seem like I'm trying to raise Chakotay up, by putting Riker and Spock down, so I'll say for a record that I think both Riker and Spock are excellent characters.
But, what do they have that Chakotay doesn't?
Spock enjoys 3D chess, playing a harp type instrument, art and antiquities and googleing stuff (research). His favorite soup is plomeek but he likes to try new and interesting foods such as marshmallows. He enjoys handling pleasant and furry pets. He is widely read in literature from at least two different planets as well as philosophy and history.
I would defo go for a walk on the beach with him.
I would defo go for a walk on the beach with him.
He's boring.
Uh-uh. I'd rather look at Tom Paris.I will say this for Chak, he's very easy on the eyes
Riker also knew that if Picard got sufficiently irritated with him, he could be transferred thisfast. Janeway didn't have that luxury, and she needed crewmembers who could fight and who knew how to run a ship.
Spock's hobbies are music and chess. He has a normal routine for meditation in his quarters, and some sort of shrine. He is a vegetarian, and we know he likes plomeek soup. He doesn't normally drink alcohol, but on at least one occasion he surprised Kirk and McCoy by accepting a glass of brandy.
I don't like Riker, but at least he shares two things with Spock: Riker is also a musician, and they both have a personality. That's what Chakotay lacks.
This is the 11nth episode of the FIRST season. Should have been the most dramatic moment of the character's life when he confronts his lover over her betrayal.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o98ULd9T0tk[/yt]
This is sooooo bad.. if I was writing for VOY I sure wouldn't give this guy any pivotal scenes.
Fair enough.
So, Riker only follower orders, not because he's a good first officer, but because he's afraid of being demoted?
Same goes for Chakotay, mostly. Only, Chakotay likes to box, carve, and Spirit Walk. Plus, he enjoys Archaeology.
*shrugs* Again, subjective. Personally, I don't get why people think Chakotay lacks personality.
Spock is fun, unlike Riker who just seems needy and sleazy. He wants to be like Kirk, but really he is the Ross of Star Fleet. Chakotay, blame the writers as much as anything. The folks writing Voyager didn't know what to do with him. Let's see if Janeway and the Borg Queen can come up with something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FmyAzl9kOM
^aaaaaaahahahaha.. good. Haven't seen that one for ages.
Oh and Chakotay > Riker. Chakotay is pleasant.
Oh and Chakotay > Riker. Chakotay is pleasant.
Because, yeah, that's what Native Americans are like.
Pardon me, because I have to go restock my hallucinogens & buy a dreamcatcher for my bedroom.
This could be said about several of the characters. Chakotay, Janeway, Kes, etc. Neelix tries various jobs looking for a niche to fit into, the EMH finally bloomed after getting the mobile emitter, Paris starts off as the ladies' man, and Harry-- well, I think Harry's finest hour was "The Chute"-- "This man is my friend. Nobody touches him!" B'Elanna was the Angry Klingon until they hooked her up with Paris, which suggests she just needed a good lay.
Tuvok seemed to be the only one the writers had a real lock on from the start.
I never really had that much of a problem with Chakotay. But he seemed too calm and at peace, and agreeable to with Janeway and Starfleet in general, to have been a Masquis. I think they should have written Chakotay to but heads with Janeway more, at least in the beginning, sort of the same way as B'elanna, and showed him change and become more at peace with Starfleet, and maybe himself. Also, I think they should have, instead of writing him to be from a generic, made up Native American tribe influenced by Delta Quadrant aliens, they should have made him from a real tribe (IE Navajo, Apache, Hopi especially, since he was supposed to be from the US Southwest~or mixed tribe heritage). Instead of using stereotypes, they could have introduced REAL native culture to the audience.
The Voyager writer's room clearly had some ideas for the characters in the beginning. But unlike TNG or DS9, where an ensemble dynamic ultimately prevailed, VOY simply developed in a way where a few breakout characters (the EMH in particular) clearly asserted themselves over time as being far more interesting to write for than the others.
Chakotay unfortunately just ended up being one of the ones whose character traits as described in the format document weren't enough to hang seven seasons of storylines on. And as others have said elsewhere, it certainly didn't help that the Maquis storyline, which let's face it was pretty much his whole rason detre for existing in the cast in the first place, was dropped almost immediately by order of the network. Having said that, they still found things for him to do..... but they simply weren't very interesting things.
Chakotay unfortunately just ended up being one of the ones whose character traits as described in the format document weren't enough to hang seven seasons of storylines on. And as others have said elsewhere, it certainly didn't help that the Maquis storyline, which let's face it was pretty much his whole rason detre for existing in the cast in the first place, was dropped almost immediately by order of the network. Having said that, they still found things for him to do..... but they simply weren't very interesting things.
Transfer does not necessarily mean a demotion. Riker wanted to stay on the Enterprise. Piss off the Captain too many times, and the next time Riker had a chance to transfer (to a new posting as First Officer, or even Captain), Picard might not allow him to choose to stay.
Boxing is no recommendation to me for someone with a worthwhile hobby. Carving? Yeah, that's fine. So is archaeology. But it still doesn't give him an actual personality.
There's nothing wrong with Neelix trying various jobs to find a niche. That's what many people do in RL. Neelix said it himself - he wanted to stay on the ship and to justify that, he had to make himself useful in some way or else he'd just be a passenger - the sort of person Janeway said they didn't want (in Caretaker).
Which is why Sam was so close lipped about her pregnancy.
As a Native American;
I think that any awareness toward our people is good. Sure TNG had typecast us as a tribeless one kind fits all culture based on a coloring book and Chakotay- well that I can explain-he was just a liar thinkin "no one I know is out here- let's see how long I can keep this Indian bee ess up.....maybe I'll go to the hydroponics weed growing bay and blaze before my shift and say im going on a spirit walk with the geico alien.
I think that any awareness toward our people is good. Sure TNG had typecast us as a tribeless one kind fits all culture based on a coloring book and Chakotay- well that I can explain-he was just a liar thinkin "no one I know is out here- let's see how long I can keep this Indian bee ess up.....maybe I'll go to the hydroponics weed growing bay and blaze before my shift and say im going on a spirit walk with the geico alien.
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