What would Roddenberry think?
- Thread starter Itisnotlogical
- Start date
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Yeah, but it got soft-pedalled compared to what it started as, which was 7 DAYS IN MAY, the sort of thing I'd've killed to see on STAR TREK. Then it gets shifted to 'aliens did it' which softens and defeats the edge of the story. Then again, at least they didn't shelve it altogether.
Hey, I'll diss XI as much as is humanly possible, but considering the money it's brought it, Roddenberry wouldn't have complained one bit.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
1. All that women in STXI are good for, is comforting boyfriends, while in TOS however primitive as it was the 60s, women were attempted to show to be more.
2. Star Trek up until now has had some basic attempts at grounding it in real science. In STXI, there wasn't even a modicum of effort.
3. In Star Trek (TOS), ethnicities were represented fairly and as equals, stereotypes were attempted to be broken, Sulu used a foil, a European sword, not the stereotype Katana. In STXI, Sulu uses a Katana. It seems the only reason that any ethnicities are in the movie, is because they were in the series and movies.
4. A dystopian future instead of a positive future. A place where people aren't willing to go into space to build a ship, is a place I don't want to live in.
5. The key to Roddeberry's Star Trek is humanism, and in particular secular humanism. A key to this, is that we ourselves without supernatural intervention, can improve ourselves and the world we live in. Star Trek XI however had fate and time modifying things closer to the original timeline, thus crushing the very spirit of Star Trek.
6. An even further dystopian look in the future, as Checkov is only 17, and was thus allowed into the academy between 13 and 15 years old - essentially allowing child soldiers.
7. Star Trek as Roddenberry said even way back when, was a vehicle for Roddenberry to allegorically teach lessons, and talk about things he could never talk about in a normal, non-SF tv show. He could get past sensors and prejudices this way and lay seeds. Was there anything even far away resembling something like this in this move? Nope, not a damn thing.
Except for Uhura who helped discover the threat.Which is more than what she's to in a typical TOS episode. And then there was Amanda. Winnona Kirk did more flat on her back in sickbay than most guest actresses in TOS. The women is TOS were mostly damsels in distress, love interests or cannon fodder.
They seemed to be using the same "science" that trek has alway used. Orci and Kurtzman seem to love talking about black holes and quantum therory for guys not making a effort.
Yet when Sulu mentions his martials arts training, its in fencing. There were ethnic actors in several roles, not just the ones from TOS.
Dystopian because they built a ship on the ground? Did you score some of GR's stash?
5.And the hyperbole award goes to..... The characters I saw strived to achieve in spite of obstacles and personal loss.
He's a whiz kid, the Doogie Houser of the 23rd Century who probably completed the Academy in less than four years. He's not Andrew Wiggin at Battle School.
Plenty of non SF shows tackled those same issues, some better than TOS. I guess they had better shielding to slip past those sensors.
What? A hit you over the head allegory that states the obvious in obvious ways? Its theme was embracing your destiny and living up to your abilities and making something from your life. I think GR would approve.
Well that was a nice list of stuff you don't like. Where's Roddenberry's?
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Except for Uhura who helped discover the threat.Which is more than what she's to in a typical TOS episode. And then there was Amanda. Winnona Kirk did more flat on her back in sickbay than most guest actresses in TOS. The women is TOS were mostly damsels in distress, love interests or cannon fodder.
They seemed to be using the same "science" that trek has alway used. Orci and Kurtzman seem to love talking about black holes and quantum therory for guys not making a effort.
Yet when Sulu mentions his martials arts training, its in fencing. There were ethnic actors in several roles, not just the ones from TOS.
Dystopian because they built a ship on the ground? Did you score some of GR's stash?
5. And the hyperbole award goes to..... The characters I saw strived to achieve in spite of obstacles and personal loss.
He's a whiz kid, the Doogie Houser of the 23rd Century who probably completed the Academy in less than four years. He's not Andrew Wiggin at Battle School.
Plenty of non SF shows tackled those same issues, some better than TOS. I guess they had better shielding to slip past those sensors.
What? A hit you over the head allegory that states the obvious in obvious ways? Its theme was embracing your destiny and living up to your abilities and making something from your life. I think GR would approve.
Well that was a nice list of stuff you don't like. Where's Roddenberry's?
As near as I can tell, your replies fall into two categories. When he gives you something you can't argue, you dismiss it as hyperbole, and when he gives you something you can only belittle, guess where you go with it?
These writers have included the expression 'black hole' to justify what might as well be the nexus given what it seems to do ... by giving it a realworld appellation, that does not imbue it with credibility, which relates more to what you choose to do with this stuff as a writer ... apparently they just use it as a space crutch.
Building the ship on the ground is moronic, utterly in keeping with the last 30 years of louder and louder sounds in space and credible spaceframe structures like epsilon 9 and the drydock being thrown out in favor of ludicrously earthbound-looking spacedocks that are 'just so big and cool.' It used to be that I could look at 'art of' and 'making of' books to see really nice extrapolations and architecture, the beauty of engineering that melds structure and artistry. Now I rely on books of actual architecture by Calatrava, since he builds stuff full-size that is more daring and brilliant than trek movie folk will even attempt to do even in the safety of a computer.
Assuming Roddenberry wasn't blind from diabetes, I assume he'd've been wondering about all the spots flashing and popping on the film. It sure didn't look very Finnerman-esque to me when I watched a few minutes on youtube a couple weeks back.
Except for Uhura who helped discover the threat.Which is more than what she's to in a typical TOS episode. And then there was Amanda. Winnona Kirk did more flat on her back in sickbay than most guest actresses in TOS. The women is TOS were mostly damsels in distress, love interests or cannon fodder.
They seemed to be using the same "science" that trek has alway used. Orci and Kurtzman seem to love talking about black holes and quantum therory for guys not making a effort.
Yet when Sulu mentions his martials arts training, its in fencing. There were ethnic actors in several roles, not just the ones from TOS.
Dystopian because they built a ship on the ground? Did you score some of GR's stash?
5. And the hyperbole award goes to..... The characters I saw strived to achieve in spite of obstacles and personal loss.
He's a whiz kid, the Doogie Houser of the 23rd Century who probably completed the Academy in less than four years. He's not Andrew Wiggin at Battle School.
Plenty of non SF shows tackled those same issues, some better than TOS. I guess they had better shielding to slip past those sensors.
What? A hit you over the head allegory that states the obvious in obvious ways? Its theme was embracing your destiny and living up to your abilities and making something from your life. I think GR would approve.
Well that was a nice list of stuff you don't like. Where's Roddenberry's?
I used the term hyperbole once because a phrase like "crushing the spirit of Star Trek" smacks of it. And I made a joke because I can't connect building the ship on the ground to it future being "dystopian". It may be stupid, but I don't see it as dystopian
I think I countered his other arguements quite well, using material from the film its self. Uhura had more to do than comfort Spock. Sulu did mention his fencing training. There were "ethnic" actors in the film playing characters not from the TOS. Chekov is "whiz kid" in the film. Other shows contempory with TOS did handle the same subject matter. So I think I did more than belittle.
It caused Nero and Spock to travel back in time and created an alternate reality. Not out of the question in the the realm of Trek science. From what I've seen the writers read quite a bit about black holes before writing the film. That they used more fiction than science doesn't mean a lack of effort.
Not a fan of building the ship on the ground ( as stated above). It did serve it purpose from a visual and story telling stand point though. I didnt have a problem with the space docks. But I don't think about that stuff much. They seemed to be similar to TWOK.
I'll assume he knows what lensflare is and was aware Finnerman wasn't working on the film.
You're great for a laugh, 3D Master. But let's break it down here.
1. Ahahahahahahahaha No. Are we even talking about the same "Captain, I'm frightened..." TOS?
2. Aha, again, what. Star Trek (and I mean TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, the movies) has always used total BS science and technobabble. Sometimes it'd use real scientific phenomena and terms, sure. But every bit as often it'd be SCIENCE.
3. First off, having just about any character of any power or signifigance being a white human man...I have to question that. Secondly, how do you know Sulu can't use more than one type of sword in the XI continuity? He did say he took fencing training, IIRC
4. I....really fail to see how the Enterprise being built on Earth makes Trek dystopian, assuming that's what you're referring to.
5. And Kirk chose to make something of his life instead of staying aimless forever. He needed a pep-talk from Pike, but still. People still are capable of improving themselves and their world, so I'm not sure how that point was lost here.
6. We weren't given many details on that point. There are most likely special circumstances. I find it impossible to believe that's standard practice.
7. Yeah, same goes for the other 10 movies. Personally, I can live with a movie "only" being entertaining or enjoyable.
1. Ahahahahahahahaha No. Are we even talking about the same "Captain, I'm frightened..." TOS?
2. Aha, again, what. Star Trek (and I mean TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, the movies) has always used total BS science and technobabble. Sometimes it'd use real scientific phenomena and terms, sure. But every bit as often it'd be SCIENCE.
3. First off, having just about any character of any power or signifigance being a white human man...I have to question that. Secondly, how do you know Sulu can't use more than one type of sword in the XI continuity? He did say he took fencing training, IIRC
4. I....really fail to see how the Enterprise being built on Earth makes Trek dystopian, assuming that's what you're referring to.
5. And Kirk chose to make something of his life instead of staying aimless forever. He needed a pep-talk from Pike, but still. People still are capable of improving themselves and their world, so I'm not sure how that point was lost here.
6. We weren't given many details on that point. There are most likely special circumstances. I find it impossible to believe that's standard practice.
7. Yeah, same goes for the other 10 movies. Personally, I can live with a movie "only" being entertaining or enjoyable.
Everything else has already been answered by others, but I am surprised nobody caught this one:
As for equality, oh yes, it's especially seen in the amount of quality screentime, lines, background and character development that Uhura and Sulu got in the show. And gosh, what a coincidence that they were the only two cast members who never got to have any kind of romantic relationship in TOS, unlike Kirk, McCoy, Chekov, Scotty, and even Spock (multiple times).
And of course, we know that Robau was in the previous series and movies.
BTW, what are "ethnicities"? What does that even mean?
Everyone has an ethnicity. Chris Pine has an ethnicity as much as John Cho does.
Ah right - stereotypes were being broken with TOS Chekov, a silly character whose every second line was about how great Russia was and about Russians inventing just about everything - so the audience could have a good laugh about the Russian's ignorance and nationalism.
As for equality, oh yes, it's especially seen in the amount of quality screentime, lines, background and character development that Uhura and Sulu got in the show. And gosh, what a coincidence that they were the only two cast members who never got to have any kind of romantic relationship in TOS, unlike Kirk, McCoy, Chekov, Scotty, and even Spock (multiple times).
And of course, we know that Robau was in the previous series and movies.
BTW, what are "ethnicities"? What does that even mean?
Everyone has an ethnicity. Chris Pine has an ethnicity as much as John Cho does.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Which would be one of the problems. You see, she did not "discover the threat", or at least, it should have been impossible for her to "discover the threat". (Rather she didn't, she was oblivious to the threat it's only Kirk who put 2 and 15 and 326 togehter and came up with 6, which by sheer luck was the right answer, but that's another matter.)
The one's who should have "discovered the threat" should be anyone else in the 4,000 lightyear wide UFP, most notably Starfleet and Starfleet Intelligence listening posts along the Klingon border, whose sole job is to discover these kinds of threats. They should have discovered the threat, and the fact that they didn't, and Uhura through no capability of her own, just got lucky her communications station is the only one in the entire UFP to detect the battle, makes her just lucky, but no more capable, and the rest of the UFP complete and utter incapable morons.
Of course, the fact she then didn't tell any superior officer of what she found, or she wouldn't have needed to tell Pike later on, proves that she's every bit the moron the rest of the UFP is, not to mention she's in dereliction of duty.
Yeah, in case you hadn't noticed, but TOS was filmed in the 1960s, for the 1960s what we saw was incredibly progressive. We're now in the 21st century, things should have gotten better, not stay the same if you're very, very optimistic, and worse if you're realistic.
(Not that you're right about Uhura doing more in the movie, I remember her repairing a circuit board, and there's Mirror Mirror and on and on. More importantly, she actually did her duty, she did not hang onto a man, that was reserved for Chapel and Rand. Wow, the most progressive of the female characters of TOS, and they reduced her to 60s sexist caricature female character - worse. You're also wrong about the guest actresses doing less than Kirk's mother, they usually did a lot more.)
Nope, not even close. You see, if Orci and Kurtzman knew even a little of Quantum Theory, they would know that Alternate Realities is not "the most tested theory in science", it's a flight of fancy with not really any real evidence behind. They would know, that Quantum Theory is a lot bloody more than "alternate realities" every single thing, except one odd instance and only with one odd theoretical idea based upon it, has got nothing to do with "alternate realities".
If they had bothered to do some research, or the production had a science advisor as Star Trek had for the past 30 years, they'd know black holes don't even come close to working the way they were depicted in the movie.
If they had bothered to do some research, they'd know super novas work even less as it was portrayed on screen.
And if they had bothered to do some research into science, how it works, and how things are named, they'd know the name "Red Matter" is stupid. Names describe a substance or its peculiarities. Dark Matter is peculiar because it is dark. "Red Matter" is not peculiar because it is red.
Result being, we know they know jack shit about science apart from some buzz words and the non-scientists complete miss-understanding of science, and dropped it in.
Which only makes it worse, doesn't it? I'm trained in fencing! (Not Kendo or Japanese fencing, but fencing.) And I use a Katana! Yay! They weer so completely unable to divorce their stereotype of Asians with katanas that they had the Asian claim a European sword-fighting style, and then pull out the Katana (which would not be so good for the European sword-fighting style, I tell you.)
1. Building in space is FAR safer. There's no gravity to in many different ways instantly reduce you to mush. Any danger in space is slow killing, and they can by the 23rd century be easily protected against.
2. For them to build on the ground instead, means that there are no people already living and working in space, as in, those who constructed ships before there was anti-gravity. That means, no space station, no space docks, no lunar colony, no Mars colony, no space stations and colonies on or around any other planet of our solar system.
3. This result in a humany either irrationally deathly afraid of space (through bad or deliberate miss-education), or one of complete apathy toward space. Both would never be able to build the Federation and be spread far and wide through space. In short, a dystopian society, and one that completely contrary to what is show, could never have built the UFP.
Nope, not hyperbole at all.
But not because they chose to, not because of their own free will, only because destiny forced them to, made them. They're minds were not their own. A supernatural force that steers things to save the day; the very anti-thesis of Star Trek.
Less than four, yep, hence, the fifteen years number I gave. In case you hadn't noticed, he IS Andrew Wiggin at Battle School. He went to Starfleet Academy, that is a MILITARY Academy, it IS a battle school. And the fact that he's a whiz kid matters not; he's not an adult, so no matter how smart, he should not have been allowed in Starfleet Academy.
Yeah, I remember when Bonanza dealt with the Vietnam war. Oh, wait a minute, no it didn't.Plenty of non SF shows tackled those same issues, some better than TOS. I guess they had better shielding to slip past those sensors.
That was because in the 60s that was about the only way to get to a lot of people. And it was only obvious to children before they got indoctrinated by their parents, and the few who like Gene realized the same thing. For a large amount of people though, no so obvious. Hell, it isn't obvious to a quite a few people today, and even they still need a sledge hammer to get it rammed into their brains.
No, it was NOT a theme at all, it didn't even come ffing close. To boot, they can't embrace their destiny, destiny FORCES them to follow their destiny whether they like it or not, manipulates them into that destiny. That's the exact opposite of essence of Star Trek.
If you didn't have your head stuck in the sand, fingers in your ears, yelling, "I don't care, I don't care, I like this and that's it, and to hell with everything Star Trek has ever done, what any documentary about the essence of Star Trek has every shown, what any book about Star Trek has ever written, what any person including Gene Roddenberry has said in interviews", you would know they ARE Roddenberry's. In fact, I even friggin' all but quoted him on occasion.
It isn't.
Then you obviously don't know much if anything at all about Black Holes.
They used no science at all. They just dropped buzz words.
Last edited:
Of course he would. He'd be estatic about this movie, and the amount of attention he'd be receiving personally.
Similar threads
