Actually, in both cases the decision has been taken out of his hands by the circumstances.
What would Picard do?
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Actually, in both cases the decision has been taken out of his hands by the circumstances.
I don't think it really matters that the enterprise was seen by a primitive culture. Primitive cultures imagine all sorts of crap, all the time, whether they've imagined them completely or seen some of it is impossible to tell after a couple of generations. The prime directive shouldn't prevent people from using their common sense.The prime directive in the prime universe was a different rule during TOS, than it was during TNG.
What the prime directive was in the alternate universe isn't clear to me, was Kirk in trouble for neutralizing the volcano (initially in secret), for stealing some holy scroll (why?), or for letting the Enterprise be seen in the sky. Obviously he screwed himself by lying on his report.
There's a possibility that Captain Picard might have attempted to neutralize the volcano, afterwards his report would have been complete and forthcoming. That he would have submerged the Enterprise Dee in the ocean is out of the question. The thing with the scroll I don't see happening.
If he could not have beamed "Spock" out of the volcano, despite their best efforts, I could actually see Picard doing nothing more.
to get the natives out of the kill zone of the eruption.
Did you miss the part where their village was leveled by lava meteors?
But at least they could swim back to the ship instead of having to send obvious shuttles to pick people up.
I think my bigger problem is that there are people who think that this is okay. Even in a fictional setting.
Part of me is against it and the other part is for it. I think that's the issue with the PD, far too much ambiguity. Civilizations come and go, as an archeologist, Picard knows this even if he does not like it.
Finding ways out of the PD is not only in Kirks MO, 2takesfrakes(#9) spells it out better than I could. There is a fine line, Picard walks it best.
I think my bigger problem is that there are people who think that this is okay. Even in a fictional setting.
Part of me is against it and the other part is for it. I think that's the issue with the PD, far too much ambiguity. Civilizations come and go, as an archeologist, Picard knows this even if he does not like it.
Finding ways out of the PD is not only in Kirks MO, 2takesfrakes(#9) spells it out better than I could. There is a fine line, Picard walks it best.
If the Prime Directive says: "You shouldn't help people who are dying because it would influence their culture." then it's just stupid and is in dire need of being amended.
I will need to watch it once again apparently but I missed the point that explained how Kirk stole the sacred scroll just so the natives would chase him to safety. Still, I think if the large lava bombs were dropping into the village the natives would have probably run anyway...
I think my bigger problem is that there are people who think that this is okay. Even in a fictional setting.
I agree. And I may be reading too much into it but I think that the presence of this scene in the film is a criticism of the modern Trek PD, which was a significant departure from the TOS PD.
In answer to the question, Picard would likely have not "interfered ," because the TNG interpretation of the PD was monstrous.
Indeed, the only times Picard was willing to violate the PD was to help a person he felt close to. And that is by far the worst of reasons? It's called nepotism and is reprehensible.
I think my bigger problem is that there are people who think that this is okay. Even in a fictional setting.
I agree. And I may be reading too much into it but I think that the presence of this scene in the film is a criticism of the modern Trek PD, which was a significant departure from the TOS PD.
In answer to the question, Picard would likely have not "interfered ," because the TNG interpretation of the PD was monstrous.
"No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society." TAS
"The Prime Directive is not just a set of rules; it is a philosophy... and a very correct one. History has proven again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous." Jean-Luc Picard, Symbiosis
It may seem ridiculous to let a civilization expire, but what would the ramifications, galaxy wide, be?
If you let a civilization expire when you have the means to do otherwise, the word "ridiculous" is not the one that comes to mind, "criminal" is.
Basically you have a principle that says (metaphorically): "you shouldn't interfere in a person's life because it could have a disastrous effect on the life of that person" BUT if that person is already DYING nothing you can do to them can make their life worse, since that life is about to END.
That's the difference between being a person of principle and a f.king idiot.
It isn't merely about that individual. Look what's going to happen to the Delta Quadrant after Seven opens up a stasis pod in Dragon's Teeth.
A hand full of aliens with 900 year old outdated tech are going to maybe bug a few people, if they can even do that.
My god the horror of it
Seriously thats your justification for leaving people to die and then making sanctimonious speeches to justify it.
A hand full of aliens with 900 year old outdated tech are going to maybe bug a few people, if they can even do that.
My god the horror of it
Seriously thats your justification for leaving people to die and then making sanctimonious speeches to justify it.
900 year old tech managed to hold it's own in the 24th century. It's safe to say they are just going to cash in their chips and start farming water
. Bug a few people? Since every species Voyager encountered in the DQ was a match for them? The Vaadwuar will be a major concern for all involved in the DQ. They handed Janeway and crew their asses in the instance, fresh out of hibernation. I think they would have no problems with the Kazon et al in a matter of 1-2 years.
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Okay, try this.
Turning off that particular volcano would not have been considered "interfering with the normal development of a species" because that species (iirc) wasn't responsible for it erupting in the first place.
If they didn't start the eruption, how would it be interfering to stop it erupting?
^Agreed. Interference in this situation doesn't begin until they get seen. And as long as they don't get caught, that interference is minimal at best. As was said earlier, the legend of the big flying thingie that rose from the sea will go off the rails and become a minor myth without context if it never happens again, and will probably ultimately be forgotten, never having much of an effect. Even if some future historians/archeologists from that planet find and wonder about the drawings of the Enterprise several thousand years in the future, it will be some little discussed mystery, similar to a printed language found in southern Spain that has no spoken equivalent*, and few even know about.
*There is such a language.
*There is such a language.
Okay, try this.
Turning off that particular volcano would not have been considered "interfering with the normal development of a species" because that species (iirc) wasn't responsible for it erupting in the first place.
If they didn't start the eruption, how would it be interfering to stop it erupting?
I would posit they were interfering in the natural evolution of the species. Sure they were destined for extinction, perhaps?, but it's their rule. I'm just spitballing thoughts.
I don't think it really makes a difference who starts what, or whether or not the culture is the cause of anything. I think it was more the principal of 'what may come if we do.' The scenario I presented in my other comment, about the Vaadwar, is one such instance.
By changing the fate of one culture may have direct and severe consequences for many others. I think that was the heart of General Order No.1.
I would also bring up the retribution on Voyager at the hands of Arturis. By giving the Borg a means to stay in the fight with Species 8472, they sentenced a race to assimilation.
Okay, try this.
Turning off that particular volcano would not have been considered "interfering with the normal development of a species" because that species (iirc) wasn't responsible for it erupting in the first place.
If they didn't start the eruption, how would it be interfering to stop it erupting?
Picard is not a heartless guy at all, but there is still a pretty good chance he might let it happen.
Pen Pals- he was just about ready to allow a stranded little girl die alone, until at the last minute, he heard her voice calling for Data.
In the end, of course, he did the right thing. And he did have a serious discussion about it with the staff.
But seriously, Starfleet (TNG especially) really exaggerates how disastrous it would be to simply save someone's life, just because they're unaware of life on other planets.
Even when the option of saving the entire planet, without being detected was brought up, it was basically rejected.
This has to be Worf at his dumbest
It's attitudes like that, that makes the PD dangerous instead of beneficial. What kind of made it look worse, was there was a pretty far out discussion about the PD, involving concepts like fate and destiny.
How did stuff like that get into the PD?
The point is not about interfering, we interfere all the time. In fact, standing by and doing nothing is also a kind of interference. The laws of humanity implicate that we would help people in distress. Not doing so is doing violence to our own nature. I think when Picard of instance gets to a point where he's willing to watch people die and do nothing, it's about as bad a bastardization of human principles as it could get. It makes him into some kind of monster that I'd like to see beat the crap of.
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