What would Picard do?

[BillJ]

It may seem ridiculous to let a civilization expire, but what would the ramifications, galaxy wide, be?

So should we allow a toddler who wonders out into traffic to be hit by a bus because they could be the next Pol Pot?

In TOS the Prime Directive was about not-interfering in the development of a race. That means not introducing technology or solving their problems for them. They have to do that on their own. They have to find their own way in that regard. Even then, the Prime Directive had stipulations, the culture had to be living and growing. If that growth was stunted, a captain could make a case for interference. Also, the Prime Directive didn't seem to apply when a culture presented a hazard to their neighbors. Or after prior contamination.

Let's also be clear that even the writers of TOS weren't sure of how they felt about the Prime Directive. In "Assignment: Earth" (written by Gene Roddenberry), we see an organization charged with making sure Earth doesn't destroy itself before reaching its potential. In "The Paradise Syndrome", we see the Enterprise diverting an asteroid from a planet with a small, underdeveloped population. There is no mention of it being a violation of the Prime Directive. In Voyager, we know there are 47 subsections of the Prime Directive and even an Omega Directive that suspends it.

Picard interpreted the Directive correctly in "Symbiosis" because the issues were part of their societies growth. Every other time (it seems) the only time Picard would interfere was if he had a personal stake in the situation.

 

[bbjeg]

I don't think Picard would have done anything for those aliens in STID. It was a clear cut non interference Prime Directive scenario. He would have let them die with no harm done to his crew...

This.

I think my bigger problem is that there are people who think that this is okay. Even in a fictional setting.

I don't think it's OK, but if Picard had to choose between breaking the prime directive and revealing a starship to an underdeveloped settlement (repeating Kirk's actions) or letting them die, he'd let them die. The end of that scene in Into Darkness had the locals abandoning their principles and bowing to a drawing of the Enterprise. I'm sure when other tribes say, "Only the scrolls are to be worshiped", wars and crusades will be raged. Looking at Earth's history, religious battles have existed since people could fight over it and it still exist today. I have a feeling more people will be lost on that planet due to religious disagreement (the Enterprise god in particular) than the number of people Kirk saved in that settlement.

If you let a civilization expire when you have the means to do otherwise, the word "ridiculous" is not the one that comes to mind, "criminal" is...

Letting acts of god proceed is not criminal. Besides, can you even imagine how many species get wiped out from random anomalies galaxy wide? The Federation would be up to there neck if they believed it was up to them to prevent all preventable disasters.

 

[bbjeg]

And was Kirk saving the planet in ID or just a settlement? If it was the planet, then was that really the only volcano that could do the job? If he thought risking Spock and his shuttle's crew, and the Enterprise, as well as revealing the Enterprise to an underdeveloped settlement just to save a few locals was a good idea, maybe he shouldn't be captain yet. I could think of a better plan than what he went with.

 

[BillJ]

I don't think it's OK, but if Picard had to choose between breaking the prime directive and revealing a starship to an underdeveloped settlement (repeating Kirk's actions) or letting them die, he'd let them die. The end of that scene in Into Darkness had the locals abandoning their principles and bowing to a drawing of the Enterprise. I'm sure when other tribes say, "Only the scrolls are to be worshiped", wars and crusades will be raged. Looking at Earth's history, religious battles have existed since people could fight over it and it still exist today. I have a feeling more people will be lost on that planet due to religious disagreement (the Enterprise god in particular) than the number of people Kirk saved in that settlement.

So you're saying it is better to allow a whole society to die than have them go through some growing pains? And no where did we see them abandoning their principles. Hell, we don't know enough about them to know what their principles even were.

They caught a glimpse of something they didn't/couldn't understand. It would take thousands of years to know if it was detrimental to their society. I'll take saving lives in the here and now over some vague possibility of what could happen hundreds or thousands of years down the road.

You're seriously bending over backwards trying to defend Picard's actions over the years.

 

[bbjeg]

So you're saying it is better to allow a whole society to die than have them go through some growing pains?

No. First, was it a society Kirk was saving or was it just the one village within it? Second, it would have been better if they stayed unseen to prevent the negative results for breaking the prime directive. As people has stated already, Kirk's plan (hiding the Enterprise underwater instead of in orbit, sending Spock into the volcano, taking the scroll) was a horrible plan (and I like ST:ID too). Third, read my post above yours.

And no where did we see them abandoning their principles. Hell, we don't know enough about them to know what their principles even were.

So, so long as a captain is unaware of a societies principles, they're allowed to alter them as they see fit?

...You're seriously bending over backwards trying to defend Picard's actions over the years.

Huh? Can you quote a single statement of mine that indicates me "seriously bending over backwards". I never once said Picard was perfect.

 

[Dexter Remmick]

It may seem ridiculous to let a civilization expire, but what would the ramifications, galaxy wide, be?

So should we allow a toddler who wonders out into traffic to be hit by a bus because they could be the next Pol Pot?

Well that escalated quickly. 1 loose toddler becomes an entire civilization.

Did Kirk in ID allow those aliens to figure things out for themselves? Or did he go ahead and solve their problems for them?

Let's also be clear that this thread is about what Picard would do. I agree the days of TOS they were just figuring things out. But in the time of Picard, they hopefully, learned a thing or two about the actions of Kirk. In either timeline.

Personally, I would attempt to save as many as I could if it was possible.

 

[kirkfan]

It's very unlikely that a volcano or even more significant volcanic activity could wipe out all intelligent life on a planet. It's laughably unlikely that seeing a starship will influence a primitive culture, of the paleolithic beyond a couple of generations after which it'll be integrated to the tons of crap they already believe in. There was no reason to worry about anything in this part of the movie, except that the plot evidently demanded it.

As for the scroll, that's some anachronism for you. These people looked like they were a couple of ten thousand of year away from even inventing writing. Writing didn't appear on Earth before we developed into great empires like the Egypt or whatever happened in Mesopotamia... These people still live in primitive little villages. Oh come on!!! That stretches credibility quite a bit.

 

[Dexter Remmick]

That stretches credibility quiet a bit.

True. But they have the rules for a reason. Some follow them to the letter, some find ways around them, while others flaut them completely. Kirk was the later while Picard floated between all.

While I get what you're saying about the level of the culture ID saved, it's still wholly possible they mucked up their belief system for centuries. If not more.

In Blink of an Eye, the mere appearance of Voyager in orbit was enough to alter one civilization to it's core. Sure they were eons ahead of the Nibirans, but it's an interesting case study for SF.

 

[kirkfan]

That stretches credibility quiet a bit.

True. But they have the rules for a reason. Some follow them to the letter, some find ways around them, while others flaut them completely. Kirk was the later while Picard floated between all.

While I get what you're saying about the level of the culture ID saved, it's still wholly possible they mucked up their belief system for centuries. If not more.

In Blink of an Eye, the mere appearance of Voyager in orbit was enough to alter one civilization to it's core. Sure they were eons ahead of the Nibirans, but it's an interesting case study for SF.

I think you are being a bit inaccurate here. It wasn't so much the mere appearance of voyager (though it lasted for millenia vs an instant for Kirk's ship) it was mostly the multiple quakes that kept destroying their cities.


(Yes I know, I know Voyager inside and out...)

 

[Dexter Remmick]

That stretches credibility quiet a bit.

True. But they have the rules for a reason. Some follow them to the letter, some find ways around them, while others flaut them completely. Kirk was the later while Picard floated between all.

While I get what you're saying about the level of the culture ID saved, it's still wholly possible they mucked up their belief system for centuries. If not more.

In Blink of an Eye, the mere appearance of Voyager in orbit was enough to alter one civilization to it's core. Sure they were eons ahead of the Nibirans, but it's an interesting case study for SF.

I think you are being a bit inaccurate here. It wasn't so much the mere appearance of voyager (though it lasted for millenia vs an instant for Kirk's ship) it was mostly the multiple quakes that kept destroying their cities.


(Yes I know, I know Voyager inside and out...)

I was more in the mindset of the crew of Voyager. I'm not sure on the time frame, but the ship wasn't there for that long.

My main point is that any interference can be disastrous. It wasn't at the time of Voyagers escape from The Weird Planet Where Time Moved Very Fast and So Did the People Who Lived There. But it could have been.

 

[kirkfan]

True. But they have the rules for a reason. Some follow them to the letter, some find ways around them, while others flaut them completely. Kirk was the later while Picard floated between all.

While I get what you're saying about the level of the culture ID saved, it's still wholly possible they mucked up their belief system for centuries. If not more.

In Blink of an Eye, the mere appearance of Voyager in orbit was enough to alter one civilization to it's core. Sure they were eons ahead of the Nibirans, but it's an interesting case study for SF.

I think you are being a bit inaccurate here. It wasn't so much the mere appearance of voyager (though it lasted for millenia vs an instant for Kirk's ship) it was mostly the multiple quakes that kept destroying their cities.


(Yes I know, I know Voyager inside and out...)

I was more in the mindset of the crew of Voyager. I'm not sure on the time frame, but the ship wasn't there for that long.

My main point is that any interference can be disastrous. It wasn't at the time of Voyagers escape from The Weird Planet Where Time Moved Very Fast and So Did the People Who [/I] Lived There. But it could have been.

By my calculation it was more than three thousand years, which roughly coincides with the technological evolution between the first scene and the last one on the planet.

Three thousand years is a great deal of a lot more than the three seconds that Kirk's ship appeared to the natives.

And that's saying nothing about the quakes that keep being referenced throughout the episode.


BTW, that's how Naomi wanted to title her essay about the planet but seven dissuaded her to do so.

 

[Dexter Remmick]

BTW, that's how Naomi wanted to title her essay about the planet but seven dissuaded her to do so.

That's where I copied it from. .

 

[kirkfan]

BTW, that's how Naomi wanted to title her essay about the planet but seven dissuaded her to do so.

That's where I copied it from. .

I knew you did. It was word perfect.