What was wrong with "These are the Voyages"

[el Chalupacabra]

I personally dismiss These are the Voyages. The real finale and the real end to the on-screen tale of Enterprise is Terra Prime. TATV is nothing more than a TNG holo-deck episode, with ENT characters in the holo-deck. Those were not the real characters, and without even reading the post-ENT novels, who is to say that the 200 year old records of Trip's death, let alone the rest of the depictions of the NX 01 crew, are even accurate by TNG's era? There were minute differences in the uniforms (name tags), T'Pols hair was different, Slight differences on the bridge, etc. The fact that no one was all that upset with Trip's death was out of character, and also we never actually see Trip die, anyway. One scene he is going into the medical chamber alive, it cuts to commercial break, then the next scene is Tpol folding Trip's clothes and the dialogue is he is dead. Way I see it is if we don't see it on screen, it didn't happen.

 

[Captain Robert April]

^ That's the spirit!

 

[Dukhat]

I personally dismiss These are the Voyages. The real finale and the real end to the on-screen tale of Enterprise is Terra Prime. TATV is nothing more than a TNG holo-deck episode, with ENT characters in the holo-deck. Those were not the real characters, and without even reading the post-ENT novels, who is to say that the 200 year old records of Trip's death, let alone the rest of the depictions of the NX 01 crew, are even accurate by TNG's era? There were minute differences in the uniforms (name tags), T'Pols hair was different, Slight differences on the bridge, etc. The fact that no one was all that upset with Trip's death was out of character, and also we never actually see Trip die, anyway. One scene he is going into the medical chamber alive, it cuts to commercial break, then the next scene is Tpol folding Trip's clothes and the dialogue is he is dead. Way I see it is if we don't see it on screen, it didn't happen.

I do have to point out that the cosmetic differences you mention (uniforms, hairstyles, etc.) are because TATV takes place 7 years after Terra Prime. Of course, that doesn't explain why no one was promoted in all that time, either.

And as far as TATV itself goes, as much as you (or even I) would like to think it didn't happen, no one at CBS or Paramount is saying otherwise. Until whoever is currently holding the reigns to ST says it isn't canon anymore, it unfortunately still is.

 

[Mach5]

People still care about canon in 2011?

Well, shit.

 

[Noname Given]

And as far as TATV itself goes, as much as you (or even I) would like to think it didn't happen, no one at CBS or Paramount is saying otherwise. Until whoever is currently holding the reigns to ST says it isn't canon anymore, it unfortunately still is.

Yes, it's canon that there's a inaccurate holodeck program about events some two humdred years earlier that Riker and Troi ran during that episode.

 

[Dukhat]

Yes, it's canon that there's a inaccurate holodeck program about events some two humdred years earlier that Riker and Troi ran during that episode.

But how do you know that the program was inaccurate?

Listen to me...I'm trying to defend an episode that I thought was complete and utter shit...

(BTW, you accidentally attributed my quote to Chalupacabra.)

 

[Captain Robert April]

Well, all of the scenes on the NX-01 are only seen within the context of that holodeck program. The last time we ever see the ship and her crew in the context of their own time period is "Terra Prime".

So, since there are some serious problems with consistency and credibility, it becomes a lot easier to resolve the problems by simply chalking it up to a badly written holodeck program and moving on.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, all of the scenes on the NX-01 are only seen within the context of that holodeck program. The last time we ever see the ship and her crew in the context of their own time period is "Terra Prime".

So, since there are some serious problems with consistency and credibility, it becomes a lot easier to resolve the problems by simply chalking it up to a badly written holodeck program and moving on.

Don't get me wrong: I hated TATV and wish it had never been made, and I'm the last person who would want to be an apologist for it. Now with that said, the events that took place on the holodeck were from 7 years after Terra Prime. Anything could have happened (or not happened, as in the case of promotions) in that span of time to make what we saw not consistent with what came before it. All I'm saying is that there's really no way one can prove that the holodeck interpretation was wrong other than one's opinion of how bad the episode was or how quirky the people were acting, because we don't have any "true" events from 2161 to compare it to.

Now if someone comes along and decanonizes TATV, I'll be the first person to hold a party in that person's honor, complete with strippers. And you're all invited.

 

[Mach5]

Now if someone comes along and decanonizes TATV, I'll be the first person to hold a party in that person's honor, complete with strippers. And you're all invited.

And all it takes for TATV to get decanonised is one simple line of dialogue in ST XII: "NX-01 was distroyed in 2159".

How about an email campaign to Bob Orci?

 

[Captain Robert April]

One of the excuses, not just for TATV but for any movie or episode, is "it happened ______ years from ______, ANYTHNG could've happened!"

Yeah, anything "could've" happened, but a lot of what could happen in all likelihood wouldn't! Here's where we land in ENT's biggest failing, not in failing to line up with canon, but in failing to line up with credibility. Yeah, it's possible that the encounter with the Ferengi could've happened with nobody ever knowing who those big-eared orange trolls were, but it requires everyone from the Enterprise crew all the way up to Starfleet Command AND the Vulcan High Command to be utter dolts for it to work.

For TATV to work, as presented, there have to be a lot of stupid people running around the galaxy. OR, you take the opening provided by the fact that it's all a holodeck program.

Somebody screwed up the program. It didn't happen that way. Case closed, move along.

 

[Dukhat]

One of the excuses, not just for TATV but for any movie or episode, is "it happened ______ years from ______, ANYTHNG could've happened!"

Yeah, anything "could've" happened, but a lot of what could happen in all likelihood wouldn't! Here's where we land in ENT's biggest failing, not in failing to line up with canon, but in failing to line up with credibility. Yeah, it's possible that the encounter with the Ferengi could've happened with nobody ever knowing who those big-eared orange trolls were, but it requires everyone from the Enterprise crew all the way up to Starfleet Command AND the Vulcan High Command to be utter dolts for it to work.

For TATV to work, as presented, there have to be a lot of stupid people running around the galaxy. OR, you take the opening provided by the fact that it's all a holodeck program.

Somebody screwed up the program. It didn't happen that way. Case closed, move along.

I completely agree with you...and at the same time I have to point out the flaw in your argument that you yourself brought up.

You're basically saying that TATV can't possibly work because everyone in that episode acted like an incompetent idiot, and because of that, the holoprogram was faulty and not true to life. OK, with you so far. But then you're comparing it to the Ferengi episode, which DID take place in the actual continuity of ENT, and everyone acted just as incompetent then as well. So really, TATV is no different from the rest of the show.

Or maybe I'm not understanding you correctly. Are you implying that the entire four years of ENT was just one bad holodeck program of Riker's? That I can buy.

 

[Gaith]

Everybody.... calm down.... deep breaths...

It's fine not to like TATV... it's fine not to consider it part of your personal Trek Canon... but don't let it ruin day after day of y'alls.

 

[Dukhat]

TATV is an absolute piece of crap that needs to burn in hell.








...but it's still canon.

 

[Captain Robert April]

It's only canon that somehow Riker found time during the episode "The Pegasus" to go play in the holodeck with a recreation of the NX-01 crew, of dubious accuracy.

 

[BlobVanDam]

It's only canon that somehow Riker found time during the episode "The Pegasus" to go play in the holodeck with a recreation of the NX-01 crew, of dubious accuracy.

How good would our recreation of events 200 years ago be? And it seems that by TNG era they still rarely if ever had even the most basic security camera setup, so I find it easily plausible that they didn't have the information for an accurate holodeck recreation. They were probably working from logs at best.

Unfortunately I can't see them getting details like Trip dying wrong, but how would they know what he said before he blew himself up? We're either to assume these are the real events mixed in with the holodeck recreation for the viewer's sake, or it's all just fudged for holodeck entertainment value, like a futuristic version of 300.

 

[Mach5]

The only way that TATV could possibly have been accurate is if NX-01 had been filled with surveillance cameras (including personal quarters), and that the footage survived intact for two centuries.

I mean, how the hell would the historians and holo-engineers who created it know what the fuck Archer told T'pol in Trip's quarters... Or better yet, how would they know about her sniffing Trip's uniform just moments before Archer came in?

If we were to take any of this seriously, then we have to, not ASSUME, but CONCLUDE that most of that holo-program was fiction that filled the blanks between documented historical events.

So what exactly do we know for a FACT? Assuming the creators of the program had complete ship's logs at their disposal.

1. No one got promoted (there would have been record of that)

2. Trip died while creating some kind of diversion to save Archer (but it's unlikely that everyone's exact words in that incident were documented. Archer's log entry surely wouldn't have been THAT specific)

3. Stuff with Shran, the amethyst, his daughter and those thugs... That was probably more or less accurate, but again, the remark from 2. also applies.

4. Archer gave a speech.

And that's it. Everything else HAD to be fictional. Every private conversation, including Trip and T'Pol in the shuttle, Archer and T'Pol in Trip's quarters, Malcolm, Hoshi and Travis bitching about bad seats...

All these situations probably did happen in some fashion, but no historian in the world could have known what was said in them.

 

[Captain Robert April]

That's all assuming it was accurately researched.

 

[brendhanbb]

the entire episode was well boring, pretty stupid and generaly came too soon. it felt like a big giant middle finger the only good scene was the very end when u hear the monolouges of the captains and see the enterpirses other then that nothing good came from this episode and infact we did not even get to see archers speech but i have been told thats porably a good thing.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Yeah, he probably would've worked in that damned gazelle story again...

 

[lurok]

TATV is an absolute piece of crap that needs to burn in hell.








...but it's still canon.

Or a Bobby Ewing shower moment? Was never a ENT fan and came to four seasons late but HORRIFIED that this was how treated at end. People responsible should have been taken out and...retired (oh, they were? a bit late...). Didn't help that TATV featured my least favorite trek actors, one of whom also popped up in VOY