What The Hell? What Is Up With The Side Hull Torpedo Bays?

[F. King Daniel]

It's sad how many of his articles about AbramsTrek are marred by what he thinks should be, instead of just sticking to what's in the movies. He makes many valid points in his inconsistencies article, but then undermines himself by including stuff like "Spock shouldn't be angry" or something.

I just can't see how a guy who is supposedly an engineer can botch up perspective so badly as Bernd does in his article on the Enterprise. Claiming the shuttlebay changes sizes when all that is different is the proximity of the camera to the ship. It's almost like a deliberate disinformation campaign, based on one guy's outdated preconceptions about the Trekverse. ILM are most certainly not "dumb", they're a far greater authority on their CG creation than a nitpicker with a website.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't care for opinion sites that are disguised as information sites.

 

[SeerSGB]

It's sad how many of his articles about AbramsTrek are marred by what he thinks should be, instead of just sticking to what's in the movies. He makes many valid points in his inconsistencies article, but then undermines himself by including stuff like "Spock shouldn't be angry" or something.

I just can't see how a guy who is supposedly an engineer can botch up perspective so badly as Bernd does in his article on the Enterprise. Claiming the shuttlebay changes sizes when all that is different is the proximity of the camera to the ship. It's almost like a deliberate disinformation campaign, based on one guy's outdated preconceptions about the Trekverse. ILM are most certainly not "dumb", they're a far greater authority on their CG creation than a nitpicker with a website.

Bernd is as biased as they come. I don't think I've ever used the info on his site in a serious way. He can write a good article, but take it with a ton of salt and accept that he's just another fan laying out the conjecture.

No worse than the vertical intermix shaft (depending on which diagram you use) of the refit from TMP through TSFS passing right through the center of the torpedo launcher and topped off with a nice glowing dome.

Actually, It passes between the photon bays, not the launcher's themselves. THe launchers are only a small forward section of the bay. But I was looking, where are all the 94 photon torpedoes on the Enterprise-A stored? (Yes I counted scotty's inventory on screen. There were 94 photon torpedoes listed on his display in STVI). I mean you got that big loader on Wrath of Khan, but where are the Torpedoes stored? Oh and Did anyone else notice that the torpedo bay on the Enterprise was not as tall as the set used in wrath of khan?

I am one of the people who likes to think of this JJprise as being relativly the same size of the original (People at ILM are dumb, give Bernd Schneider some credit, he really thinks these things through, and gives perfectly logical explanations, people just dont want to pay attention to what he says). The Windows and Hatches would all be way out of size for a 700 meter vessel. -so In conclusion, it all comes down to this. Starfleet vessels got Harry Potter Magic space expanders. Like the one that allows Voyager to hold 17 shuttles. (and allows the Delta flyer which is bigger than the shuttlebay doors, to fly out of VOyagers shuttle bay). Lets not forget in Nemesis Riker being on the Enterprise E's non existant deck 29, and almost falls down at least 15 more non existant decks in the Ent-E's own pit of doom.

I guess what I am trying to say here, Star Trek has always had issues with Infinite stuff fitting in Finite space.

Sorry, but the official number is 700(~) and that's the size of the ship. Plenty of on screen evidence to support that. Even if there wasn't: That's the official size.

Bernd has an axe to grind about Nu-Trek so hard, it's throwing sparks off the grinding wheel, and it's biasing his work.

Not to mention the fact that a fan (or fans) are somehow more authoritative than the people that designed the damn ship for the movie is just eye rolling.

 

[Mycroft Maxwell]

Ryan Church designed it to be around the size of the original. Other than one shuttlebay scene, what on screen evidence you talking about? All other scenes suggest the thing is not that big. Especially when you look at the scene in St09 where it scrolls out from the bridge. It was some idiot that decided to upscale it to a ludicrous size. "Hey that brewery would not fit in that ship" "uhhh...uhhhhhh...we'll just say the ship is much bigger". If you look at the windows, and the ports the 700m is a size officialized by a severely blind person. I mean at 700 meters, the freakin bridge window would be 2 decks tall!!!. Did you even read the article on the size of the NuEnterprise? As for Bernd, he's critical of all stuff onscreen. Thats what he does, he analyses stuff. I find it interesting. Not to say I agree with all his observations and analysis, some things I strongly disagree, but I really appreciate his depth into things.

Also,I find his observations more reliable than "Official" sources. Afterall, there are some "Official" sources that say Voyager has Quantum torpedoes. Does it make it true? Of course not.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Ryan Church designed it to be around the size of the original. Other than one shuttlebay scene, what on screen evidence you talking about? All other scenes suggest the thing is not that big.

You didn't read the thread I linked you to, did you?

Especially when you look at the scene in St09 where it scrolls out from the bridge.

You might want to look at that scene again, the dome extends far further back than the bridge.

It was some idiot that decided to upscale it to a ludicrous size. "Hey that brewery would not fit in that ship" "uhhh...uhhhhhh...we'll just say the ship is much bigger".

Making the ship fit the interiors is the entire point. You think it's better it not fit?

If you look at the windows, and the ports the 700m is a size officialized by a severely blind person.

At 366 meters:

At 725 meters:

And here is a comparison of the airlocks:

Now, who's blind, exactly?

I mean at 700 meters, the freakin bridge window would be 2 decks tall!!!.

No it wouldn't. It would be 8ft tall, exactly as we see. The 8ft tall window would take up the entire height of the dome at 366m. It obviously does not.

Did you even read the article on the size of the NuEnterprise?

Yes, and I linked to proof that it was BS. More proof is above. Are you going to believe rethoric or evidence?

 

[Mycroft Maxwell]

Well to each his own. I rather not argue it any futher, I'm trying to make friends with you all. (though I do have arguments like these with my friends as well) But you just posted some very strong evidence though.

On the Brewery issue, I don't even thing theres room for that thing on a 700m starship. Its pretty darn big. But as I said before, Exterior/interior sizes seem to have always been a problem in Star Trek (as I referenced before, the refit shuttlebay in STII).

I was thinking though, if we got these new side launchers, how come there are no new side phaser banks to go with them?

 

[M'Sharak]

Okay, enough.

The Starship Size Argument™ thread was created in the first place because the starship size argument was constantly hijacking and derailing other threads. Take the discussion and all the diagrams there, or leave off, but in this thread it stops now.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Well to each his own. I rather not argue it any futher, I'm trying to make friends with you all. (though I do have arguments like these with my friends as well) But you just posted some very strong evidence though.

No worries. I try not to take anything said here personally and hope you have a good time on the BBS. This ship size thing is probably the most bitterly argued subject on this forum, goofy a subject as it is.

On the Brewery issue, I don't even thing theres room for that thing on a 700m starship. Its pretty darn big. But as I said before, Exterior/interior sizes seem to have always been a problem in Star Trek (as I referenced before, the refit shuttlebay in STII).

I'd love to superimpose a floorplan of that brewery over the Enterprise, and find out if that's true or not. I suspect it might just about fit... but not with that high ceiling seen when Scotty and Kirk are saved by Chekov

I was thinking though, if we got these new side launchers, how come there are no new side phaser banks to go with them?

I say more hatches would open up, with phasers and whatever else is needed behind them.


Apologies for the derailment, M'!

 

[Dale Sams]

Since we're talking about weapons....

...I didn't like how..."puny" the weapons sound compared to the ungodly amounts of damage they APPEARED to be doing. Compare to WOK where no shields means serious business.

Not a fan of the 'death by a thousand paper-cut' phasers and torpedoes.

 

[The Librarian]

Isn't "death by a thousand papercuts" exactly how the TWOK phasers worked, as opposed to the traditional solid beams or even the Defiant's pulse phasers?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I thought the nuTrek phasers pretty much were the same as those in WoK, only with a fuckton of banks firing at once instead of just one or two (and that brings me to - why on Earth didn't the Reliant and Enterprise fire all-out at each other in the same way the Enterprise-D did at the Borg or the Enterprise did at the Narada in the '09 movie?)

 

[Dale Sams]

I thought the nuTrek phasers pretty much were the same as those in WoK, only with a fuckton of banks firing at once instead of just one or two (and that brings me to - why on Earth didn't the Reliant and Enterprise fire all-out at each other in the same way the Enterprise-D did at the Borg or the Enterprise did at the Narada in the '09 movie?)

Well, Khan was holding back at the beginning of WOK. Then afterwards we could argue that either the technology or the damage kept them from doing so.

Also for pacing and suspense reasons, I prefer the usage in WOK. I just think it works better than ST:ID's "BLIPBLIPBLIPBLIP"

Not a dealbreaker though.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

My reaction to the side torpedo bay doors opening.... "Arrrrrrrrrr.... we be at broadsides, cap'm!"

And the moral of the story turns out to be:

Do not take Star Trek too seriously.

Since we're talking about weapons....

...I didn't like how..."puny" the weapons sound compared to the ungodly amounts of damage they APPEARED to be doing. Compare to WOK where no shields means serious business.

Not a fan of the 'death by a thousand paper-cut' phasers and torpedoes.

If you consider that ships in this universe seem to be able to use their phasers as point defense weapons and shoot down enemy torpedoes, it may be the case that saturation attacks (12 to 18 torpedoes at a time) would be neccesary to score a hit at all). This seems to be the one advantage Narada had: it could fire a single torpedo that immediately launched 10 smaller ones, confusing the hell out of the ship's defenses.

Also: this thread needs more SCREENCAPS. Someone, anybody... SCREENCAPS!

 

[austen_pierce]

I thought the nuTrek phasers pretty much were the same as those in WoK, only with a fuckton of banks firing at once instead of just one or two (and that brings me to - why on Earth didn't the Reliant and Enterprise fire all-out at each other in the same way the Enterprise-D did at the Borg or the Enterprise did at the Narada in the '09 movie?)

Answer: Studio Budget.

Isn't "death by a thousand papercuts" exactly how the TWOK phasers worked, as opposed to the traditional solid beams or even the Defiant's pulse phasers?

I LOVE the phaser effects in TWOK. There's something truly viscerally satisfying about the staggered fire pattern and way they slice relentlessly through hull plating (and presumably people). I'd like to know why we NEVER see Kirk fire phasers on the big screen before OR after TWOK.

 

[OpenMaw]

I LOVE the phaser effects in TWOK. There's something truly viscerally satisfying about the staggered fire pattern and way they slice relentlessly through hull plating (and presumably people). I'd like to know why we NEVER see Kirk fire phasers on the big screen before OR after TWOK.

He tries on two occasions but is stopped. In TMP it would have, like, blown up the ship. The second time, in TSFS, the Enterprise craps the bed. (After Kruge fires his screwed up torpedo and blows up the automation center.)

"Emergency power! We've got to return fire. Mr. Scott can you transfer power to the phaser banks?"

-sparkspattercrackdead-

"Uh, I don't think so sir."

 

[F. King Daniel]

I thought the nuTrek phasers pretty much were the same as those in WoK, only with a fuckton of banks firing at once instead of just one or two (and that brings me to - why on Earth didn't the Reliant and Enterprise fire all-out at each other in the same way the Enterprise-D did at the Borg or the Enterprise did at the Narada in the '09 movie?)

Answer: Studio Budget.

I doubt ILM charge per beam. Two or ten, it should all be the same.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I doubt ILM charge per beam. Two or ten, it should all be the same.

Of course ILM charged "per beam". Those are man-hours of labour for some animator, in an era pre-dating sophisticated CGI (where the difference between two or ten is a stroke of the keyboard).

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I love how every single shot in TWOK actually mattered, and each shot did severe damage to an unshielded starship.. which is why Meyer made it so that very few shots actually hit in total. I think their "burning" through the hull really worked.

I think the Nu Enterprise would have been destroyed just looking at the first volley of fire it took (while at warp).

Oh and during that warp scene, what's up with the phasers changing course in midstream, shooting forwards and then downwards? It's kind of cool, but kind of hokey. I wonder if it was just done because it looked cool (most likely reason) or because they were traveling faster than the phasers?

 

[SeerSGB]

I love how every single shot in TWOK actually mattered, and each shot did severe damage to an unshielded starship.. which is why Meyer made it so that very few shots actually hit in total. I think their "burning" through the hull really worked.

I think the Nu Enterprise would have been destroyed just looking at the first volley of fire it took (while at warp).

Oh and during that warp scene, what's up with the phasers changing course in midstream, shooting forwards and then downwards? It's kind of cool, but kind of hokey. I wonder if it was just done because it looked cool (most likely reason) or because they were traveling faster than the phasers?

They're Macross Type Phasers Anyone that's seen the Macross anime, knows energy weapons can make angles in space.

 

[bullethead]

Oh and during that warp scene, what's up with the phasers changing course in midstream, shooting forwards and then downwards? It's kind of cool, but kind of hokey. I wonder if it was just done because it looked cool (most likely reason) or because they were traveling faster than the phasers?

Gattling phasers with arcing beams.