What the hell happened to Descent?

[Praetor]

Just popped in this two parter tonight mainly because of this thread. I agree. I really enjoyed part one, mainly because it really delved into the psychological effect of what Data went through and seeing him with Lore at the end was a nice cliffhanger. Unfortunately, the episode didn't go anywhere after that in terms of that plot. They bring back Hugh, and for what? I don't care about Lore's True Calling, even though when he was shut down, that did have some meaning. I also liked the scenes with Crusher on the Enterprise, and bringing back Metaphaysic shielding, which was part of an episode I really liked from the 6th season, Suspicions. Of course I know that episode isn't all that liked, so it might be a guilty pleasure but it was nice to see it referenced when Crusher was in command.

Wholeheartedly agreed. (I love 'Suspicions' too.)

I enjoyed the whole thing with Beverly in command of the Enterprise and the dynamics that went on there and her staff management

I actually view this as very bad development. Crusher's command experience was used for the unappealing promotion of Troi and her resulting humilation of Data and his DECADES of Starfleet service.

Command and medicine are to very different fields. Crusher was already one of the best doctors arround and she did head up SF medical. I guess she and the other superwomen can do it all.

I never saw Doctor McCoy take command of the Enterprise.

The difference here is that McCoy was outlined to have been a doctor before he joined Starfleet. (The reason given in the writers' guide bio for his joining Starfleet is that he wanted to escape a bad marriage.) He may not have even had full, regular Academy training.

Theoretically, he could have taken the same officer qualifications as Crusher (who was a full commander to McCoy's TOS Lt. Cmdr.) and been given a higher place in the command structure, but I'd argue this is something he did not seek. He was just an ole country doctor, after all. Crusher, OTOH, clearly enjoyed it.

Troi's promotion being unappealing is subjective. I actually think that was a good episode.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I never saw Doctor McCoy take command of the Enterprise.

Aside from the fairly decent novel Doctor's Orders, neither did I.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Troi's promotion being unappealing is subjective. I actually think that was a good episode.

I don't dislike the episode, but it seems to be the primary example of trying to tell two unrelated stories in the same hour. I have never liked that approach.

 

[Xerxes1979]

I thought of another example of a medical officer exercising command in the DS9 episode "Hippocratic Oath".

Bashir was so out of line O'brien had to use force against him to escape the Jem Hedar.

 

[WillsBabe]

Crusher's command experience was used for the unappealing promotion of Troi and her resulting humilation of Data and his DECADES of Starfleet service.

How is Troi getting a promotion humilation for Data? I didn't find Troi's promotion unappealing, either.

 

[JB2005]

He spent decades working his way up the command ladder (no doubt fighting alot of android prejudice) and in the course of one ep, Troi says "right, bored today, I know I'll get that hollow pip filled"

 

[Anwar]

They brought a soap opera with them from the Alpha Quandrant.

It worked out for Farscape and nuBSG...

 

[Hober Mallow]

So basically, if they encountered a new race they'd get slammed for making them too similar, and if they made a new race that's too different they get slammed for making them too different.

No, something different would have been nice. Different and scientifically plausible.

The whole promise of Voyager from the get-go was that they were going to be so far from home they were going to truly encounter very different aliens and phenomena never before seen on Star Trek. Instead, we got TNG-lite week after week. We got lazy writers who were content to just show us everything we'd seen before.

And anyways, most sentient life in the Trek Galaxy was seeded by the Progenitors meaning they WOULD all big similarities anyways.

Even that's a big stretch to explain why not only everyone looks alike, but all possesses the same technology totally compatable with Voyager.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

I thought the Vidiians were interesting - but they could have used some really nice looking ships to balance out how ugly they were.

That would have been interesting considering they used to be a "beautiful" species. Although, it would be unrealistic to think that the Vidiians could maintain "beautiful" tech/ships because so much of their resources were devoted to fighting the Phage for so many years. Personally, I'm picturing ships that used to look as sleek as the Naboo ships, except they're worn, battered, and used now.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Fans hated the Vidiians for being ugly, they hated the Krenim for whatever reason, they hated Think Tank, they hated the Hirogen, they saw the 8472 as plot devices, they hated Seska, there wasn't much in the series they DIDN'T hate. And don't say "it's because it wasn't done well" because odds are no matter how well it was done fans still would have hated it. They were too po'ed that the writers didn't have the entire cast all hating and wanting to kill each other from the pilot onwards that they refused to give anything the writers gave them a chance.

I gave them a chance. They failed.

It simply wasn't believeable that this crew and sahip were decades away from the nearest starbase. Everything is perfectly normal. No one acts like they're out in the middle of nowhere away from everything they know and love. Instead, it's just Starfleet business as usual.

There should have been major discipline problems; instead the writers were too afraid it would make Janeway look like a weak leader.

The whole introduction of the character conflict with the Maquis and the starfleet officers was completely pointless, because the source of that conflict -- alpha quadrant politics -- is completely removed from the series by the events in the pilot. The reason the bajoran/starfleet conflict on DS9 was interesting was that the source of their conflict was right there in the series. Once you've taken the source of conflict away by the necessity of everyone needing to work together to get home, you've defeated your own purpose. As it was, the story of the maquis was interesting on TNG and DS9 and not at all interesting on Voyager -- and it was created with Voyager in mind.

And of course, we're supposed to believe that Voyager could take a pummeling week after week, only to be in perfect working order for the next episode. Please. If the writers and producers really believed in their own story, by the end of the series Voyager would have looked like Chris Farley's car at the end of Tommy Boy.

It seemed to me show-runners like Piller and Jeri Taylor had different ideas about what the series was supposed to be. Piller envisioned Voyager as a generational ship, with a crew who klnow they will never themselves get home, but that their grandchildren someday will. Instead, the show lowered itself to gimmicky Gilligan's Island stories. "Oh my Gosh, they're gonna get home! Darn it, it didn't work! Maybe next time, guys!"

 

[Anwar]

They didn't panic because it wasn't like there wasn't precedent for their situation. Both Kirk and Picard got their ships stranded beyond the known reaches of space and yet both made it back, so they had hopes it would be the same for them. No reason to panic.

Major discipline problems? Why? You yourself said it made no sense there'd be Maquis infighting anyways.

VOY had replicators and space is full of resources for them to tap and turn into materials they'd need to fix up.

Seems that you just had unfair expectations of VOY from the get-go, it wasn't that "They failed" it was "they didn't do things 100% the way I wanted them to be".

As for the tech being similar to VOY's, that's always been a Trek staple for aliens anyways, even as far back as TOS.

 

[Anwar]

So basically, if they encountered a new race they'd get slammed for making them too similar, and if they made a new race that's too different they get slammed for making them too different.

No, something different would have been nice.

They did that, and got nothing but hate. So they went for the more familiar, and got hate. Fans were just predisposed to rip into them despite their merits.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Why is everyone pissy about Troi taking a promotion? Surely that tests were available to Data as well? or was it her semi-bitchy comment afterwards to Data that bothered you?

Also didn't that promotion technically leave Troi as second officer? 3rd in command? Her and Riker are the only commanders on board and she outranks Data so logically..?
...and if he was going to the the Enterprise-E first officer, xo of the flag ship why was he not promoted to full commander?
I quite liked seeing Data in a command uniform in Chain of Command it seemed to suit him, same for the time he was in command of the enterprise and the Sutherland. No wonder he was going to be first officer.



I liked seeing Beverly in command it made a bit of a change, she's not just a doc as some said, if she were not capable of command she would not have been given the rank of commander, and clearly had leadership/management skills if she could lead starfleet medical.

 

[Hober Mallow]

They didn't panic because it wasn't like there wasn't precedent for their situation. Both Kirk and Picard got their ships stranded beyond the known reaches of space and yet both made it back, so they had hopes it would be the same for them. No reason to panic.

Picard and Kirk always got their crews back by the end of the episode.

Major discipline problems? Why? You yourself said it made no sense there'd be Maquis infighting anyways.

It has nothing to do with the Maquis. The crew is lost thanks in part to the decision of the captain. Yet the crew is so superhuman, they understand there was a greater good at stake. Gimme a break. Over time, the crew should have started questioning whether or not Janeway did the right thing, whether they were doing the right thing by wasting Voyager's (seemingly endless supply of) energy by flying home. In real historical incidents of sailing ships lost at sea or in hostile territory, when supplies get low and hope seems lost, discipline breaks down. A crew in this situation isn't going to continue to uphold the status quo. Not even Gene Roddenberry's perfect human beings.

VOY had replicators and space is full of resources for them to tap and turn into materials they'd need to fix up.

Voyager pitch: "We're going to send this ship a gajillion lightyears from home, from the nearest starbase, from everything they know... but we'll make sure they always have ready access to absolutely everything they need so they won't be in any real danger." What an exciting drama! It's a cop-out. This way the writers don't have to deal with any real implications of such a scenario. What's the point of such a scenario in the first place if you don't want to deal with any of the consequences? Where's the drama of such a scenario when there are no consequences?

Seems that you just had unfair expectations of VOY from the get-go, it wasn't that "They failed" it was "they didn't do things 100% the way I wanted them to be".

Try, "they introduced a concept they had no intention of ever exploring."

 

[Anwar]

So what if they got home by the end of the episode? The point is that they both were taken out further than VOY was and yet they still managed to make it back. Meaning there's precedent in Starfleet for this sort of thing happening, and as such it means they know it can work out so there's no reason to freak out.

As for Janeway stranding them, using the Array to go home was never an option to begin with. Being brought there damaged the ship and killed a lot of the crew, being sent back in the same manner would have done the same all over again. And like I said, they had existing records of similar events happening to give them hope they'd get home anyways.

You're idea of "exciting drama" basically is the same as saying "toss out continuity and canon, it'll make things better".

More like "They resisted the easy path of tossing out every single prior bit of continuity and canon jsut to satisfy the grimdark-obsessed viewers."

 

[Xerxes1979]

They didn't wasting Voyager's (seemingly endless supply of) energy by flying home. In real historical incidents of sailing ships lost at sea or in hostile territory, when supplies get low and hope seems lost, discipline breaks down. A crew in this situation isn't going to continue to uphold the status quo. Not even Gene Roddenberry's perfect human beings.
."

Actually what was more unrealistic was Voyager's frequent lack of energy not an over abundance. Most Starfleet vessels have onboard anti-matter generators that convert deuterium to anti-deuterium at a cost ratio of 10:1. Since hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe I don't see why major repairs and fuel generation could not be done by stopping at various gas giants between episodes.

 

[Hober Mallow]

You're idea of "exciting drama" basically is the same as saying "toss out continuity and canon, it'll make things better".

My idea is for them to actually deal realistically with the series concept they introduced. They took the easy way out; they practically ignored it.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Actually what was more unrealistic was Voyager's frequent lack of energy not an over abundance. Most Starfleet vessels have onboard anti-matter generators that convert deterium to anti-deterium at a cost ratio of 10:1. Since hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe I don't see why major repairs and fuel generation could not be done by stopping at various gas giants between episodes.

And once someone said that at the pitch session, that would be the time I'd say, "Well, in that case, this series really doesn't sound like it's going to be all that exciting. Let's go back to the drawing board."

 

[Praetor]

He spent decades working his way up the command ladder (no doubt fighting alot of android prejudice) and in the course of one ep, Troi says "right, bored today, I know I'll get that hollow pip filled"

And clearly Troi had to deal with a lot of prejudice against blueshirts being qualified for command.

Why is everyone pissy about Troi taking a promotion? Surely that tests were available to Data as well? or was it her semi-bitchy comment afterwards to Data that bothered you?

That's my guess.

Also didn't that promotion technically leave Troi as second officer? 3rd in command? Her and Riker are the only commanders on board and she outranks Data so logically..?

It doesn't quite work like that. Beverly had been a full Commander all along yet was not second in command. McCoy was a Lt. Cmmdr. yet was not very high up in the command chain (or did not seek command) based on what we saw. What Troi did was take the training and test that made her a full commander and allowed her to take command of shifts. She wouldn't be bumped up the command chain automatically. Even though she could still technically pull rank, Data could still pull position on her. (Sort of like how Harry Kim could order people around on VGR because he was the Ops Chief even though he was a lowly ensign.)

Similarly, Data may have already had to take that test, yet not gained the promotion because he was a goldshirt and because he was Second in Command anyway. I have a theory that the test in question works different for blueshirts than goldshirts or redshirts - and that there are different requirements for 'specialists' like Troi than for officers who are high up in the command chain already like Data. It's important to remember that doctors in the U.S. military, for example, are often graduated at, I believe, at least an O-3 rank in reflection of their doctorate.

...and if he was going to the the Enterprise-E first officer, xo of the flag ship why was he not promoted to full commander?

My guess is because the reassignment/staff shuffling had not yet taken place. The promotion came with the reassignment.

I liked seeing Beverly in command it made a bit of a change, she's not just a doc as some said, if she were not capable of command she would not have been given the rank of commander, and clearly had leadership/management skills if she could lead starfleet medical.

Agreed. I can't help but think her experience at Starfleet Medical might have been what prompted her to have taken the command test in the first place.

 

[WillsBabe]

Why is everyone pissy about Troi taking a promotion?

Not too sure. I don't have a problem with her promotion myself. Geordi got promotions, too. Are people pissed off at him as well? I do think Troi's comment to Data was a bit bad form, though.

And clearly Troi had to deal with a lot of prejudice against blueshirts being qualified for command.

I've lost count of the number of times on this board that people seem to be saying that Troi doesn't deserve her rank because she doesn't make the ship go. A different argument, but still.