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What is your opinion of season 3 as a whole?

Girl power? Give me a freakin' break. All they did was flesh out her character a bit. In the 1960s, all too often it was the "man show" with the wimmens being "oh, captain, I'm scared" bullshit. They've not swung it too far the other way.

Chapel is a competent professional. I may not like how she chooses men, but that's on me. I like to women be treated more as equals, not as ding-dongs who always need male help. So sue me.

As for Spock, in this prequel, he's still trying to find out who he is. Many younger people experiment in their youth. H's experimenting - with humanity, and yes, with relationships. He hasn't settled down yet into the TOS Spock. He will of course.

In real life most of us figure out who we are what we want out of life and relationships after a period of trial and error.
 
I am a person that likes strong good masculine characters but even Janeway who is female has been a more authoritative captain than SNW Pike with more good bad ass earned moment.
Pike is just Archer without the anti-Vulcan attitudes.

It would be nice to see Hornblower Pike before the series ends.
La'an should never have been a direct descendant of Khan unless they always intended to spin her off as a temporal agent alongside Gary 7, wiping the memories of those who knew her, or some such. She doesn't end up with Spock and nobody really recalls who Khan was in TOS. She's definitely getting wiped... Her story could have been identical if she had been descended from a different augment, however.
If La’an stayed as a Vulcan instead of reverting her back to her old self in 4.5 Vulcans, that would have opened up a lot of new story opportunities for her and the crew. And justified everyone going from calling her La’an to La’An all season.

Just another example of S3 undermining SNW as a whole.
 
I'm jumping in midway here, so forgive me if something is mentioned already on the previous nine pages.

I think the main way to describe Season 3 was uneven. Some decent episodes and some really bad ones and some rehashes that we didn't need.

Hegemony Part II was alright. You had to get M'Benga & Sam Kirk back, but I found that half of the episode to be better than the Pike side. I was frustrated that the Gorn simply got put into hibernation, but it follows Trek tradition of not being able to stick the landing in Part II's.

Wedding Bell Blues continues to beat this dead horse of the Spock/Chapel relationship and then pushes him into a relationship with La'an. I get that Ethan Peck is physically attractive, but he was never interested in Chapel in TOS and here, he's like a love sick puppy. Rhys Darby was fun and I enjoyed the trickster stuff in a fun way, but I was done with the relationship and just didn't care.

Shuttle To Kenfori. I like the episode as a Pike/M'Benga friend journey. The Klingon storyline could have been chopped and Pike still could have extracted the admission of guilt from M'Benga. Zombies have been done, even in Trek. It was an opportunity to do something different and we got zombies.

While I liked A Space Adventure Hour as an hour of TV, it is yet another episode of the SNW cast playing different characters. They use the proto-holodeck as a McGuffin to get there and all we're doing is more La'an/Spock relationship building. I'll forgive them if there is some event in the future where La'an is killed tragically that forces Spock to close that part of himself off, but right now, its just cringy writing.

Through The Lens Of Time was the first good episode of the season, even with the continued featuring of the love triangle. I got lost in some of the explanation of the whatever they were in, but at least it was closer to Star Trek than anything else so far in the season.

Sehlat was another good episode. It could have been two separate episodes between the original crew coming together on the Farragut and the human colonist story. As much as it had been done with Star Trek Beyond etc, a group that decided to leave Earth and then take an absolute shit kicking to become this vengeful scrapper group is an interesting concept.

What is Starfleet? was my favourite of the season. Even if Beto is being disingenuous, we still got more character development for Uhura and Ortegas that we had up until this point. It was different to see the events happen from a third party view instead of being right on top of them.

Four & A Half Vulcans is SNW's Threshold, And The Children Shall Lead, These Are The Voyages, Shades of Grey and it is probably worse than most of them. Obviously written for a reason to stick the four regulars in Vulcan makeup for wacky hijinks, it is painfully bad to watch the actors try and be Vulcans. I will admit to some laughs with Vulcan Pike, if only because he leans into the absurdity into the story. The La'an wants to stay Romulan storyline is out of left field (all of their "we want to stay Vulcan stuff" was silly) and the problem is again solved by love with an assist fro the power of dance. The Una stuff with Patton Oswalt was another WTF moment. She is this cool, collected officer, but Doug drives her wild? Why? The joke isn't funny. The only part of the episode I would watch again is the post credit scene with Peck & Oswalt going back and forth.

Terrarium was the best episode of the season until they dragged the Metrons into it. There was no reason other to have them other than "hey look a TOS reference." The episode had been a tour de force from Melissa Navia, who basically is acting by herself, in a fake environment, and doing a damn good job of it. But the minute La'an is sent off the bridge to go rescue Ortegas, you know she is going to kill the Gorn and the episode doesn't have any payoff from the moment.

New Life & New Civilizations was frustrating. For the entire season, Batel seemed like an after thought, that the writers truly had no idea what to do with her after they made her part Gorn. Nurse Gamble is partially saved from being a redshirt by being an excellent villain. But if we deleted Four & A Half Vulcans, moved Terrarium back and had a two part finale, so we could have longer, more intimate scenes in the world Batel created for Pike. It was a great idea, but it feels shoved in amongst all this other stuff that's going on and it shortchanges characters like M'Benga, who the villain has this interest in. It felt very rushed, but it was still a decent episode.

Another irritating thing in this season was the forced inclusion of James Kirk in some episodes. Paul Wesley plays him well, but is this his show or Anson Mount's as Pike? Four & A Half Vulcans - he shows up to visit Sam, apparently not checking in ahead, but sticks around to drink with Scotty so he can get swept up in the La'an plot. He should be used sparingly.

Can we cut Pelia now? She isn't funny. I didn't find the telephone bit funny nor did I find her scenes throughout the season to do anything to further the story. I get she is the intended comic relief, but they keep giving her these time traveller lines and again, just not interested.

The romance story plots with Spock need to be thrown out. I'm sorry if Ethan Peck or Jess Bush or whoever wants them, but you are writing a series that's a prequel. I'm not a fan that declares the bridge should look like it did in the 60's or the Klingons should have smooth heads, I get that real life technology allows for new and interesting thing. But it is bad writing to take pre-established characters with pre-established ways of acting and change them up. If anything, Spock feels like a creep that can't let go of Chapel, when in TOS, he could care less about her for the most part.
 
S3- a huge letdown. No one needs CW in Spaaaaaace and the Trek-light nature of the show missed more than it hit. The cast tried to hype it for 'you haven't seen'-ness, and they were right. Perhaps worse, no manner of input or feedback can be incorporated into 4 or 5... Most eps had fantastic moments, but not a lot to revisit down the road or think too much about.
 
I'm jumping in midway here, so forgive me if something is mentioned already on the previous nine pages.

I think the main way to describe Season 3 was uneven. Some decent episodes and some really bad ones and some rehashes that we didn't need.

Hegemony Part II was alright. You had to get M'Benga & Sam Kirk back, but I found that half of the episode to be better than the Pike side. I was frustrated that the Gorn simply got put into hibernation, but it follows Trek tradition of not being able to stick the landing in Part II's.

Wedding Bell Blues continues to beat this dead horse of the Spock/Chapel relationship and then pushes him into a relationship with La'an. I get that Ethan Peck is physically attractive, but he was never interested in Chapel in TOS and here, he's like a love sick puppy. Rhys Darby was fun and I enjoyed the trickster stuff in a fun way, but I was done with the relationship and just didn't care.

Shuttle To Kenfori. I like the episode as a Pike/M'Benga friend journey. The Klingon storyline could have been chopped and Pike still could have extracted the admission of guilt from M'Benga. Zombies have been done, even in Trek. It was an opportunity to do something different and we got zombies.

While I liked A Space Adventure Hour as an hour of TV, it is yet another episode of the SNW cast playing different characters. They use the proto-holodeck as a McGuffin to get there and all we're doing is more La'an/Spock relationship building. I'll forgive them if there is some event in the future where La'an is killed tragically that forces Spock to close that part of himself off, but right now, its just cringy writing.

Through The Lens Of Time was the first good episode of the season, even with the continued featuring of the love triangle. I got lost in some of the explanation of the whatever they were in, but at least it was closer to Star Trek than anything else so far in the season.

Sehlat was another good episode. It could have been two separate episodes between the original crew coming together on the Farragut and the human colonist story. As much as it had been done with Star Trek Beyond etc, a group that decided to leave Earth and then take an absolute shit kicking to become this vengeful scrapper group is an interesting concept.

What is Starfleet? was my favourite of the season. Even if Beto is being disingenuous, we still got more character development for Uhura and Ortegas that we had up until this point. It was different to see the events happen from a third party view instead of being right on top of them.

Four & A Half Vulcans is SNW's Threshold, And The Children Shall Lead, These Are The Voyages, Shades of Grey and it is probably worse than most of them. Obviously written for a reason to stick the four regulars in Vulcan makeup for wacky hijinks, it is painfully bad to watch the actors try and be Vulcans. I will admit to some laughs with Vulcan Pike, if only because he leans into the absurdity into the story. The La'an wants to stay Romulan storyline is out of left field (all of their "we want to stay Vulcan stuff" was silly) and the problem is again solved by love with an assist fro the power of dance. The Una stuff with Patton Oswalt was another WTF moment. She is this cool, collected officer, but Doug drives her wild? Why? The joke isn't funny. The only part of the episode I would watch again is the post credit scene with Peck & Oswalt going back and forth.

Terrarium was the best episode of the season until they dragged the Metrons into it. There was no reason other to have them other than "hey look a TOS reference." The episode had been a tour de force from Melissa Navia, who basically is acting by herself, in a fake environment, and doing a damn good job of it. But the minute La'an is sent off the bridge to go rescue Ortegas, you know she is going to kill the Gorn and the episode doesn't have any payoff from the moment.

New Life & New Civilizations was frustrating. For the entire season, Batel seemed like an after thought, that the writers truly had no idea what to do with her after they made her part Gorn. Nurse Gamble is partially saved from being a redshirt by being an excellent villain. But if we deleted Four & A Half Vulcans, moved Terrarium back and had a two part finale, so we could have longer, more intimate scenes in the world Batel created for Pike. It was a great idea, but it feels shoved in amongst all this other stuff that's going on and it shortchanges characters like M'Benga, who the villain has this interest in. It felt very rushed, but it was still a decent episode.

Another irritating thing in this season was the forced inclusion of James Kirk in some episodes. Paul Wesley plays him well, but is this his show or Anson Mount's as Pike? Four & A Half Vulcans - he shows up to visit Sam, apparently not checking in ahead, but sticks around to drink with Scotty so he can get swept up in the La'an plot. He should be used sparingly.

Can we cut Pelia now? She isn't funny. I didn't find the telephone bit funny nor did I find her scenes throughout the season to do anything to further the story. I get she is the intended comic relief, but they keep giving her these time traveller lines and again, just not interested.

The romance story plots with Spock need to be thrown out. I'm sorry if Ethan Peck or Jess Bush or whoever wants them, but you are writing a series that's a prequel. I'm not a fan that declares the bridge should look like it did in the 60's or the Klingons should have smooth heads, I get that real life technology allows for new and interesting thing. But it is bad writing to take pre-established characters with pre-established ways of acting and change them up. If anything, Spock feels like a creep that can't let go of Chapel, when in TOS, he could care less about her for the most part.
I think the Metrons were brought in purely as a way to explain why the Federation in Arena know so little about the Gorn.

I don't think they are going to kill La'an, I think they are going to erase her. Everyone knows her background and therefore it's silly that they aren't more fully briefed on Khan in Space Seed, so either the Metrons, Romulan secret agents, or temporal police, are going to do something.

I disagree that TOS Spock wasn't interested in Chapel. TOS Spock avoided Romance altogether, unless external factors intervened. SNW is explaining how he got there.

It made no sense for Chapel to be seeking her fiancé and then 5 mins later confessing that she loves Spock, and now it does. I think this has been the cleverest part of the show. Break Spock's heart enough times and he swears off love altogether. Perfectly symmetrical and logical.

I'm not really a fan of him dating a fellow officer though. I love La'an but the relationship feels a bit weird.
 
Four & A Half Vulcans is SNW's Threshold, And The Children Shall Lead, These Are The Voyages, Shades of Grey and it is probably worse than most of them.
That's some hyperbole right there. There is absolutely no way Four and a Half Vulcans can be considered worse than And the Children Shall Lead or Shades of Gray. I mean, come on, really? Really?
No one needs CW in Spaaaaaace
Then good thing that's not what this is.
 
I think the Metrons were brought in purely as a way to explain why the Federation in Arena know so little about the Gorn.

I don't think they are going to kill La'an, I think they are going to erase her. Everyone knows her background and therefore it's silly that they aren't more fully briefed on Khan in Space Seed, so either the Metrons, Romulan secret agents, or temporal police, are going to do something.

I disagree that TOS Spock wasn't interested in Chapel. TOS Spock avoided Romance altogether, unless external factors intervened. SNW is explaining how he got there.

It made no sense for Chapel to be seeking her fiancé and then 5 mins later confessing that she loves Spock, and now it does. I think this has been the cleverest part of the show. Break Spock's heart enough times and he swears off love altogether. Perfectly symmetrical and logical.

I'm not really a fan of him dating a fellow officer though. I love La'an but the relationship feels a bit weird.
spock and laan are kind of casual, it was implied but hence the criticism as you yourself said, Spock avoided romance in TOS so it is way too much of a change that he is shown in what seem like a casual sex for fun narrative with cough cough khan's decedent.

and to those that say peck is attractive, I agree but Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto were equally attractive if not even more than Peck but there somewhat chararczation with women was still very plausible with their characters. although some one been attractive been the sole reason for their horndog days is very CW indeed.

Also again I think some of the core characters been white characters is the reason some are could be going easy on them because it was not this way with star trek discovery.

Tyler and Michael in discovery were even less toxic than spock/chapel but I had to listen to how boring that romance was as said by fans. I

here was something more clever- kelvin kirk is a womanzier but what that series did(star trek 2009) was brilliant and clever in the sense that kelvin kirk never ended up banging the woman he was chasing which was klevin uhura who was actually in a much more serious and committed relationship with kelvin spock and they managed to stay together even though the kelvin guys have faced more hardship than SNW so far.

So yeah I have seen another trek series re-imagine this characters with more sensitivity than SNW -CW is doing. this I will say from a good writing show was far ''clever'' than the spock and chapel drama which background is not even based on trek lore realism. breaking spock's heart time and time again when he did not care for her in tos is not clever, it is just angry modern TV writers trying to re write tos because chapel was a card board one note character in tos who was crushing for a guy that did not care for her existence.

I really do think the fandom needs to address and talk about this issues, the bizarre over correction of TOS than SNW is doing is actually harming SNW. I feel this is the route of many of the problems in the show.

I know it is crazy but TOS is not this ancient dinosaur series that was so so so bad writing female characters. SNW is making it look like this is the case when it was not.
 
That's some hyperbole right there. There is absolutely no way Four and a Half Vulcans can be considered worse than And the Children Shall Lead or Shades of Gray. I mean, come on, really? Really?

Then good thing that's not what this is.
Four and Half Vulcans was like Thor Love Thunder. It made me laugh but certain elements were pitched so completely wrong that it ended up on the wrong side of parody. It was more like I, Mudd than And the Children Shall Lead.
 
here was something more clever- kelvin kirk is a womanzier but what that series did(star trek 2009) was brilliant and clever in the sense that kelvin kirk never ended up banging the woman he was chasing which was klevin uhura who was actually in a much more serious and committed relationship with kelvin spock and they managed to stay together even though the kelvin guys have faced more hardship than SNW so far.

So yeah I have seen another trek series re-imagine this characters with more sensitivity than SNW -CW is doing. this I will say from a good writing show was far ''clever'' than the spock and chapel drama which background is not even based on trek lore realism. breaking spock's heart time and time again when he did not care for her in tos is not clever, it is just angry modern TV writers trying to re write tos because chapel was a card board one note character in tos who was crushing for a guy that did not care for her existence.

I really do think the fandom needs to address and talk about this issues, the bizarre over correction of TOS than SNW is doing is actually harming SNW. I feel this is the route of many of the problems in the show.

I know it is crazy but TOS is not this ancient dinosaur series that was so so so bad writing female characters. SNW is making it look like this is the case when it was not.
NuKirk flirted with NuUhura the first time he met her. He did not spend time chasing her. NuKirk peeped at Carol when she was changing. He did not spend time chasing her. His shallow, some might say callous, womanising was a sign of his loneliness. Also, NuSpock dumped NuUhura prior to ST Beyond.

Also, I would not say that the interactions when his guard is down in Naked Time and Amok Time prove that Spock had no feelings for Chapel, so much as he was conflicted and resisting any feelings he might have for Chapel. He apologises to Chapel. Why does he do that if he has no feelings?

The portrayal of women in TOS was not universally poor but there was an assumption in the writing that female officers were not good at their jobs, except the menial elements. Angela Martine, Uhura, and Charlene Masters were tough in a crisis but even Uhura needs propping up by a man on more than one occasion. Grace Lee Whitney lamented that all the yeomen were cute and not very bright, especially for trained astronauts. This was not good writing.

I do think that characters should have flaws and weaknesses but the actresses in TOS were often more accomplished than their empty-headed characters who were working on a spaceship.
 
That's some hyperbole right there. There is absolutely no way Four and a Half Vulcans can be considered worse than And the Children Shall Lead or Shades of Gray. I mean, come on, really? Really?

Then good thing that's not what this is.
I would definitely put "Shades Of Gray" above "Four and a Half Vulcans". At least "Shades Of Gray" kept the subtle continuing season 2 theme of space travel being inhetently dangerous, and Riker had a few good character moments, like how he keeps his sense of humor while facing death. And certainly "THRESHOLD" is far superior... it had some genuinely good character beats for Tom and some nice body horror. (Only the last few minutes really hurt the episode.)

SNW's episode was just plain bad.


Though not likely worse than "AND THE CHILDREN SHALL LEAD" or "THESE ARE THE VOYAGES..."... those were just abysmal.
 
Why would they need to know more? One, they don't know it's Khan until confirmed by fragmented historical record. Once identified, Spock, Kirk and McCoy and Spock all demonstrated knowledge. What else should they know?

I don't understand the issue.
I think the problem stems from small universe syndrome. She could still have Augment DNA but from one not mentioned before. Didn't have to be Khan. (Would have been a good way to expand the universe and still keep the core issues she faced with her lineage.)

It's a trap that the current era seems to find themselves in regularly.
 
I think the problem stems from small universe syndrome. She could still have Augment DNA but from one not mentioned before. Didn't have to be Khan.

It's a trap that the current era seems to find themselves in regularly.
I mean, that's fair but seems completely disconnected from the the knowledge Kirk and company have. Same with the Gorn. Even if Spock has experience he has no time to inform Kirk once the enemy is identified.

I have reservations over SNW but these issues are not among them.
 
I mean, that's fair but seems completely disconnected from the the knowledge Kirk and company have. Same with the Gorn. Even if Spock has experience he has no time to inform Kirk once the enemy is identified.

I have reservations over SNW but these issues are not among them.
There was still quite a bit of time left in "SPACE SEED" once Khan was identified for there to be some recognition by Kirk or Spock about La'an. It just truly wasn't needed to be Khan... he certainly wasn't the only Augment in existence.



Regarding the Gorn...

I've largely enjoyed what SNW has done with the Gorn and don't find any real issue with "ARENA". (The Metron appearance in "Terrarium" is another issue entirely.)

Though to be fair, the entire minefield of Gorn issues could have been avoided by using another race. Say, the Tzenkethi. We don't know what they look like, and it's implied in DS9's "THE ADVERSARY" that there was more than one war with them. (Sisko's log entry about 'the last Tzenkethi war'.) This would have not only expanded the universe but also given us some Federation history with that race. (Similar to how ENT expanded on the Andorians, particularly through us getting to know Shran. Or LOWER DECKS with Orions with Tendi and her family and PRODIGY with Tellarites with Jankom.)
 
I mean, that's fair but seems completely disconnected from the the knowledge Kirk and company have. Same with the Gorn. Even if Spock has experience he has no time to inform Kirk once the enemy is identified.

I have reservations over SNW but these issues are not among them.
I think it's more that the character reactions and dialogue are not what I would expect if they had much wider, personal knowledge. La'an has a chip on her shoulder about being judged for her ancestors as though everyone is fully aware of augment history. And it's not just about individual characters' personal knowledge of the Gorn as opposed to the Starfleet database on the Gorn.

On the other hand, TOS Spock's and Chapel's dialogue now comes with subtext that is entirely consistent with what we've seen to date in SNW and, in some ways, makes incongruous dialogue make more sense. I don't get that clever penny-dropping feeling for Khan or the Gorn.

I think the problem stems from small universe syndrome. She could still have Augment DNA but from one not mentioned before. Didn't have to be Khan. (Would have been a good way to expand the universe and still keep the core issues she faced with her lineage.)

It's a trap that the current era seems to find themselves in regularly.
Absolutely agree with this. La'an should have been descended from a different augment.
 
There was still quite a bit of time left in "SPACE SEED" once Khan was identified for there to be some recognition by Kirk or Spock about La'an. It just truly wasn't needed to be Khan... he certainly wasn't the only Augment in existence.
I agree it shouldn't be Khan. Khan has become Trek's Moriarty who is hardly Sherlock's most difficult adversary yet gets repeated.
I've largely enjoyed what SNW has done with the Gorn and don't find any real issue with "ARENA". (The Metron appearance in "Terrarium" is another issue entirely.)
I was ok with the Gorn until the season opener. I'm less ok now.
think it's more that the character reactions and dialogue are not what I would expect if they had much wider, personal knowledge.
I would be curious to know what reaction would be expected? This is still a man who is artifact of a different period of history. They're personal connection to a descendant would be strange because it's not relevant.

It's like if Custer and Sitting Bill happened to know they shared Genghis Khan as an ancestor. Would that change their response to each other?

Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not one to remark on my connection to people in light of different circumstances.
 
I agree it shouldn't be Khan. Khan has become Trek's Moriarty who is hardly Sherlock's most difficult adversary yet gets repeated.

I was ok with the Gorn until the season opener. I'm less ok now.

I would be curious to know what reaction would be expected? This is still a man who is artifact of a different period of history. They're personal connection to a descendant would be strange because it's not relevant.

It's like if Custer and Sitting Bill happened to know they shared Genghis Khan as an ancestor. Would that change their response to each other?

Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not one to remark on my connection to people in light of different circumstances.
Personal knowledge of a living direct descendant of a guest known to half the characters? It would most definitely have come up, and, given how the writers seemed to have a plan about how to sidestep the Gorn issue, they must have one for La'an.

Christina Chong is so cool, I'm hoping she going to be wiped from memory and given her own spin off as a temporal agent. Quantum Walz.
 
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