What If..Roddenberry had Full Creative Control

[Kor]

How do we know Ferengi don't have enormous, uh, schwanzstuckers? And we already do have love instructors, but we have a much more accurate term for them: we call them sex therapists.

In some early concept art of the Ferengi, it was more evident from the shape of their garments. It was included in "The Art of Star Trek." The drawing can be seen partway down this ancient thread: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/redesign-the-ferengi.269671/page-2

Kor

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Nice codpiece.

 

[The Wormhole]

Of the top of my head, Troi with 3 boobs, Ferengi with enourmous cocks, orgies going on in the background of any scene happening on Earth. Love instuctors.

You know, the usual.

Also, TNG Justice would have been all about orgies. Which might actually have been an improvement over what we got.

 

[suarezguy]

*Shrug* Gene Coon did make the original series better but what we did get before he came on was also quite good and promising, could have also improved - but I'm not sure how much of that was from Roddenberry not having full control. And for all the comments of he would have wanted more sexiness what we did actually get did have a lot of titillation which is fine but I don't think Roddenberry would have pushed for that much more or it would have made that much difference.

I imagine full control Roddenberry would have played up more (the peaceful, helpful) demonic looking Spock contrast more and may have been more often, overtly critical of religion and some advocacy of free love, both of which could have been too controversial and resulted in too much backlash.

He would have insisted in having the Ferengi more often and more as villains even if comical. He generally was a little too un-commercial so it's very hard to see a studio giving and keeping him with a lot of control for more than they did in TMP and early TNG.

 

[suarezguy]

We should not be asking if Roddenberry would dislike episode like “In The Pale Moonlight”. He probably would not like the Dominion War arc at all.

We should be wondering what he’d think about panned episodes like “Profit and Lace” “Threshold”, “A Night in Sickday”, & “Precious Cargo” - if he would agree that that should be panned or he sees positive attributes to them - , what he’d think about stuff like the decon chambers & catsuits, and if he’d prefer Lower Decks to the string of dark Trek shows from DS9 to PIC.

It would be funny if, had he lived longer, he had been, like with the Bennett movies, quite vocally against Deep Space Nine and yet a lot of fans didn't know about that or didn't really admit how much he was against it. I don't think him directly criticizing it would have resulted in it getting more backlash and fan criticism than the show did get. If he had tolerated and/or just been silent about Deep Space Nine he would have definitely been fine with the catsuits and decon scenes, tell complaining viewers to lighten up and remember the titillation of the original.

Although if he had lived and consulted with Berman and Piller about Deep Space Nine it may not have been quite such a departure from his idealism, depart from it but not as much and not so directly against it, and their relationship from TNG would also probably temper what criticisms he might make.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

He generally was a little too un-commercial

You’ve heard of Lincoln Enterprises right?

Roddenberry was the first to jump on the commercialisation boat with Star Trek.

 

[Kor]

And those godawful lyrics for the TOS theme certainly weren't meant purely for artistic expression.

Kor

 

[Gary Bitchell]

Lost In Space's pilot, shot within weeks of the first Trek pilot cost in the same range. And the Shatner-Adam West pilot Alexander the Great cost waaaay more than either.


And do you really think StarTrek.com has dug through the Roddenberry papers to verify this? I have the dated "Omega Glory" script pages right here, "interference with the evolvement of alien civilizations" is named as a major no-no in Roddenberry's April 25,1965 proposed second pilot story outline for "The Omega Glory" from 15 months before Coon was hired.

Likewise that 2nd pilot version of "The Omega Glory" has Spock mention "Hodgeson's law of planetary evolution," so even that goes back to almost the beginning.

I think that people who want to shell their websites and pretend they are the top authority on all things Trek don't make people want to actually check their websites.

Anyway, more people will cite and care about startrek.com than your "I'm the best fan ever" Site. get over it.

 

[Maurice]

I think that people who want to shell their websites and pretend they are the top authority on all things Trek don't make people want to actually check their websites.

Anyway, more people will cite and care about startrek.com than your "I'm the best fan ever" Site. get over it.

You're not the popular girl and "get over it" are amongst the most vacuous comebacks possible. If people are too credulous about what they get from popular media sites then there's nothing wrong with pointing that out.

 

[Lord Garth]

So...Roddenberry would've gotten the first Star Trek movie out before Star Wars in this scenario...?

Probably around the same time-ish. A low-budget big-screener would take one-and-a-half or two years to make. So probably Holiday Season 1976 to the middle of 1977, would be my guess. The God Thing dies in infamy while Star Wars skyrockets as it did. Which takes us back to what I said earlier about how Paramount would've wanted to come up with another Space Franchise afterwards. How that franchise would've fared is anyone's guess.

 

[shakham]

My understanding was that NBC forced TOS to move to having a multi-racial crew. GR first iteration with Pike had the all-white Navy looking crew. Sure Pike's crew had some ahead-of-times concepts like a female #1, and the alien science officer, but it's far away from what we ultimately got.

I know this is a small part of the entire impact GR could have had with full creative control, but just thought I'd start there.

 

[plynch]

@Maurice, when you crack your knuckles to get to work, I go get a snack, because an enjoyable time is coming.

I have a question. GR was originally a writer, and I thought (no sources other than my own brain) he created his shows so he himself would have vehicles in which to tell stories he wanted told.

How/when did he transition to enjoy being a premise-inventor/executive/overseer more?

I am pretty sure he story edited/rewrote many S1 scripts, leading to Gene Coon being hired and GR's forced vacation. Was that a case of feeling forced into doing what he didn't want so much to be doing anymore (direct script work) -- for the good of the show?

 

[Neopeius]

How much of the sexism of TOS was due to Roddenberry?

It is a shame how sexist TOS had to be considering other shows of that time weren't as bad like "The Fugitive".

Robert

I'm trying to objectively gauge where Star Trek was re: sexism in the 66-67 tv season.

Better than Mission: Impossible, though by the end of the first season, Cinnamon was doing things beyond being a femme fatale, and there was that great Eartha Kitt episode. Not as good as Danger Man, which was excellent with re: to female representation, but it was also a British show, so it's hard to compare. About on par with I, Spy, which sometimes was progressive (regarding women -- regarding non-whites, it was unprecedented) and sometimes...not.

Better than Dragnet or all of the westerns. And even if the ingrained sexism of the time clung to TOS like a patina, we still have to remember:

There was a senior female officer on the bridge. A third of the crew of the Enterprise was female.

The first woman captain of a Naval vessel in real life didn't happen until 1990, at a time when only 8.9% of the department was women (and they were barred from combat duty).

It kind of annoys me when people off-hand throw out phrases to describe TOS like "sexist" or "cheesy" or "camp" or even "cheap". TOS was not perfect, but it was no less than "the first adult science fiction show" on TV (not my words -- John Campbell's). It was a high budget, high quality production.

And as for sexist, it was one of the prime engines for the mass influx of women into science fiction, a genre that had been a boy's club for 50 years (about 10% of what was published in the 50s and 60s was by women). Women dominated Trek creative fandom. Then they graduated to being professionals.

But it came out in the 60s. That's when the assertion that Black men were just as good as white ones was at the cutting edge of progressivism. The turn of women would wait for the 70s. I'm just grateful Star Trek was as good as it was!

 

[Trekker09]

Women dominated Trek creative fandom.

I’m surprised if that’s true. It certainly seems that the fanbase now is almost all guys, like around 98% to judge by this forum.
To me, the biggest, most influential ‘creative control’ decision by Roddenberry was choosing Rick Berman to carry the torch. According to Berman, it was partly because he had never watched Star Trek – huh?! And, he clearly stated he did not believe in GR’s optimistic vision of the future. Maybe it was the studio who chose Berman, rather than GR himself - ? Berman’s main credit was producing a kiddie show, Big Blue Marble….which didn’t exactly qualify him for overseeing a franchise about space exploration. He was notoriously hard to work with on a personal level – misogynistic, homophobic, wouldn’t allow Garrett Wang to direct, etc. As some have said, Star Trek continued to survive in spite of, not because of Berman. It has succeeded as a commercial product, whether people continue to watch it for the ‘radical hope’ it originally inspired, I couldn’t say.

 

[The Wormhole]

He was notoriously hard to work with on a personal level – misogynistic, homophobic, wouldn’t allow Garrett Wang to direct, etc.

Let's back that truck up right now. While Rick Berman was a toxic individual and there are several well documented incidents of him being abusive towards those who worked on Trek shows (most notably, and by his own admission even, Terry Farrell), there were very legitimate reasons for why Garrett Wang was never allowed to direct an episode. It is well documented Garrett Wang's work ethic as an actor left much to be desired, in that he was frequently late arriving on set and there were even some days he didn't show up at all. But more to the point, no one gets to direct an episode without being a trained and qualified Director. Indeed, by the time Voyager was in production, there was even a specialized Director's training program meant to accommodate the busy schedules of actors on the main cast who were interested in directing. However, despite his repeated requests to direct an episode, Garret Wang never took part in any form of Director's training, and that is the reason why he was never selected to direct an episode. This has even been confirmed by Robert Duncan McNeil.

 

[Neopeius]

I’m surprised if that’s true. It certainly seems that the fanbase now is almost all guys, like around 98% to judge by this forum.

Rule #30.

More seriously, male dominated spaces tend to be self-perpetuating. That said, I'm relatively sure T'Bonz is a female-type person.

As for early Trek fandom being dominated by women:

1) Bjo Trimble (one could argue it's BJOHN, but still)
2) The 100+ Leonard Nimoy fanclubs as of 1967, almost exclusively female
3) The first Trek con in 1969, run by Sherna Comerford Burley and Devra Langsam
4) The "first" Trek con in 1972, run by "The Committee" (7 women, 5 men -- both chairs being women)
5) Star Trek fanzines being almost exclusively female run/composed
6) Star Trek: The New Voyages all (or virtually all) stories by women

I can't speak to modern fandom.

 

[Qonundrum]

In some early concept art of the Ferengi, it was more evident from the shape of their garments. It was included in "The Art of Star Trek." The drawing can be seen partway down this ancient thread: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/redesign-the-ferengi.269671/page-2

Kor

Thanks in advance for the nightmares I'm going to have over the next few days! It's well-done, but it's like someone drew Mister Mxyzptlk or Picard during a fever dream...

 

[Trekker09]

there were very legitimate reasons for why Garrett Wang was never allowed to direct an episode.

Okay, didn’t know that about Wang, but it was only one of many complaints about Berman.

early Trek fandom being dominated by women:

Interesting, wasn't aware of that about the early fan clubs etc. I guess it’s fair to say forums like this don’t reflect the fan base per se, only people who have a need to write about it. I should stop reading negative stuff about GR, Berman et al or it will turn me completely against watching Trek.
Still don’t understand why GR picked RB to take over….that bit of creative control affected the next 18 years.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Still don’t understand why GR picked RB to take over….that bit of creative control affected the next 18 years.

My feeling is that at that point in time. GR wanted somebody who wouldn't challenge his authority and impose their own aesthetic onto Trek. He'd already alienated Trek veterans like Bob Justman, D.C. Fontana, and David Gerrold by that point, probably out of fear that they'd take over.

But it's also very possible that Berman was just a studio choice and Roddenberry was making the best of a bad situation.

 

[The Wormhole]

But it's also very possible that Berman was just a studio choice and Roddenberry was making the best of a bad situation.

IIRC, that's basically it. The studio wanted Berman involved with TNG because he was someone they knew could deliver affordable product on time, while it was just fortunate happenstance that Berman was someone Roddenberry got along with and therefore didn't raise too much of a fuss about.