What if Kes had stayed instead and...

[Tachyon]

And who would have become the operations officer on bridge?

The obvious choice would be Seven.

But that would have most likely meant that there would have not been Astrometrics onboard Voyager.

Or... perhaps there would have been. Perhaps Seven and B'Elanna had to build it together. And since Harry was B'Elanna's buddy, she would have had another reason to resent Seven, and being stuck with her in such an assigment would have not made her any happier either. Now Kes on the other hand would have tried to guide Seven through the possible difficulties of working with another individual without the ability to be as "one mind". B'Elanna, who has practically nothing in common with Kes, would have not liked her hanging around them. So it could have been an interesting storyline for an episode - three so different persons trying to find a common ground while Chakotay was in the background keeping taps how their work progressed.

 

[Tachyon]

I think it's an interesting idea. I could see Kes helping rehumanize Seven instead of the Doc, perhaps using her psychic abilities to benefit somehow. Obviously, Seven would probably become the Ops officer, which frankly makes more sense than giving her a non-position as they did.

That would have altered Doctor's character development as well. Most likely at least. This whole thread is about speculation in the first place. So I speculate.

Perhaps both Seven and The Doc would have remained more on a same level in their social abilities and Kes would have had to step up more as a mentor for them both. I would have rather seen Kes mothering Seven instead of Janeway as well, because the whole "mother goose" thing Janeway had was a turn off for me. Never cared to see that. Of course that would have not been a lot of character growth for Kes, but it could have provided interesting sub-plots, like Kes had with Doctor in an episode "Tattoo".

 

[Lynx]

I think it's an interesting idea. I could see Kes helping rehumanize Seven instead of the Doc, perhaps using her psychic abilities to benefit somehow. Obviously, Seven would probably become the Ops officer, which frankly makes more sense than giving her a non-position as they did.

That would have altered Doctor's character development as well. Most likely at least. This whole thread is about speculation in the first place. So I speculate.

Perhaps both Seven and The Doc would have remained more on a same level in their social abilities and Kes would have had to step up more as a mentor for them both. I would have rather seen Kes mothering Seven instead of Janeway as well, because the whole "mother goose" thing Janeway had was a turn off for me. Never cared to see that. Of course that would have not been a lot of character growth for Kes, but it could have provided interesting sub-plots, like Kes had with Doctor in an episode "Tattoo".

Some good suggestions here. As for the "mother-daughter" thing, Kes could have supported Seven in the same way as Janeway supported Kes.

As for Kim, despite the suggestion for the thread that Kim should have been dumped, I would still like to keep him as well. They could probably have found something interesting for Seven to do anyway. In fact, both Seven and B'Elanna in Engineering could have been interesting, two persons who didn't like each other but still had to cooperate. Maybe Kes could have been of some help here too.

 

[exodus]

The only thing the that throws all of this out of whack, is the actually behind the scenes fueds. How do you give Kes and others those roles when Kate Mulgrew is giving the writers/producers hell because she wants more or equal screne time to Jeri Ryan? That's what put everyone else at a disadvantage and why Lien probably would still get very little screen time with Ryan to be that character suggested.

 

[Praetor]

Wasn't Mulgrew's whole thing because she felt threatened by what they were doing with Seven in the first place?

 

[exodus]

Wasn't Mulgrew's whole thing because she felt threatened by what they were doing with Seven in the first place?

Mulgrew has issues with being an older woman in Hollywood and she felt personal hatered toward Ryan because she felt she was stealing her spot light. However, how can you take it out on Ryan when it's both their bosses(B&B & Paramount) that using Ryan to promote the show? Ryan didn't ask to be put in the spot light, Paramount sell it up for her and they sell up the promos. Unlike Patrick Stewart & Avery Brooks, Mulgrew wasn't willing to step back and allow her other co-stars their time in the spot light because she was too busy fighting for more scene time over them, so everyone suffered.

 

[Tachyon]

Suffered exactly what?

 

[exodus]

Suffered exactly what?

By not getting more stories or more screen time.

Robert Picardo asked for more time to play his character. Mulgrew was fighting for equal screen time with Ryan, so what room was there left for anybody else? We could of had more Tuvok, Chakotay, Be'Lanna & Paris, hell even more Neelix but how could they, if others are trying to hog up the spot light due to jealousy? How would Lien, who is shy and reserved naturally ever get her fair shot in all of that?

We as an audience suffered due to all of that too because it denied this show of reaching it's full potential.

 

[kimc]

Suffered exactly what?

By not getting more stories or more screen time.

Robert Picardo asked for more time to play his character. Mulgrew was fighting for equal screen time with Ryan, so what room was there left for anybody else? We could of had more Tuvok, Chakotay, Be'Lanna & Paris, hell even more Neelix but how could they, if others are trying to hog up the spot light due to jealousy? How would Lien, who is shy and reserved naturally ever get her fair shot in all of that?

We as an audience suffered due to all of that too because it denied this show of reaching it's full potential.

It sounds like you're blaming Voyager not reaching it's full potential on Mulgrew which isn't fair. Mulgrew did have some valid points about the first Trek with a woman captain resorting to adding a sex symbol to boost ratings. If you read her interviews she never personally insulted Ryan.

I love how whenever two or more women are working together people like to believe there's a cat fight going on. The classic is when Katee Sackhoff was asked about her supposed rivalry with Tricia Helfer. Her response was "If I didn't like her I wouldn't be meeting her for a beer after this."

 

[Lynx]

The only thing the that throws all of this out of whack, is the actually behind the scenes fueds. How do you give Kes and others those roles when Kate Mulgrew is giving the writers/producers hell because she wants more or equal screne time to Jeri Ryan? That's what put everyone else at a disadvantage and why Lien probably would still get very little screen time with Ryan to be that character suggested.

Of course Mulgrew should have most of the screen time! Janeway was supposed to be the main character. I can understand that Mulgrew (who was probably p***ed off by being reduced to nr.2) disliked the changes and wanted as much or more screen time as the newcomer. What I know, Mulgrew and the others were p***ed off by the treatment of Lien as well.

If those in charge had had the ability to run the show instead of creating this situation in the first place, ALL the main characters would have had their share of the screen time, just like they had in seasons 1-3.

By not getting more stories or more screen time.

Robert Picardo asked for more time to play his character. Mulgrew was fighting for equal screen time with Ryan, so what room was there left for anybody else? We could of had more Tuvok, Chakotay, Be'Lanna & Paris, hell even more Neelix but how could they, if others are trying to hog up the spot light due to jealousy? How would Lien, who is shy and reserved naturally ever get her fair shot in all of that?

We as an audience suffered due to all of that too because it denied this show of reaching it's full potential.

Well, as I said before, with people in charge who could do the job, it would never have been any problem. ALL main characters would have got their share of the action, just like in the other Trek series, Stargate and other series as well.

If the audience was suffering, then it was simply because of bad management and bad leadership.

And the Kes fans suffered most because they had to see their favorite getting dumped first and then humiliated and destroyed.

 

[Tachyon]

Yeah. Everytime I hear about these alledged catfights, I have hard time believing them as such. They are intriguing stories I guess, so people keep telling them with exaggerating little bit here and little bit there.

But this thread was about Kes, was it not?

 

[teya]

The only thing the that throws all of this out of whack, is the actually behind the scenes fueds. How do you give Kes and others those roles when Kate Mulgrew is giving the writers/producers hell because she wants more or equal screne time to Jeri Ryan? That's what put everyone else at a disadvantage and why Lien probably would still get very little screen time with Ryan to be that character suggested.

Of course Mulgrew should have most of the screen time! Janeway was supposed to be the main character. I can understand that Mulgrew (who was probably p***ed off by being reduced to nr.2) disliked the changes and wanted as much or more screen time as the newcomer. What I know, Mulgrew and the others were p***ed off by the treatment of Lien as well.

As has been quantified many times by myself (who no one believes ) and now by Christopher Bennett in the new ST Mag, Kate had the most screentime of any character in Voyager--even after Jeri arrived.

She was never in danger of being eclipsed onscreen.

If those in charge had had the ability to run the show instead of creating this situation in the first place, ALL the main characters would have had their share of the screen time, just like they had in seasons 1-3.

In seasons 1-3 some had much more time than others. It was never an even playing field.

 

[kimc]

Yeah. Everytime I hear about these alledged catfights, I have hard time believing them as such. They are intriguing stories I guess, so people keep telling them with exaggerating little bit here and little bit there.

But this thread was about Kes, was it not?

Indeed it is. Thanks for keeping me in line.

 

[Lynx]

The only thing the that throws all of this out of whack, is the actually behind the scenes fueds. How do you give Kes and others those roles when Kate Mulgrew is giving the writers/producers hell because she wants more or equal screne time to Jeri Ryan? That's what put everyone else at a disadvantage and why Lien probably would still get very little screen time with Ryan to be that character suggested.

Of course Mulgrew should have most of the screen time! Janeway was supposed to be the main character. I can understand that Mulgrew (who was probably p***ed off by being reduced to nr.2) disliked the changes and wanted as much or more screen time as the newcomer. What I know, Mulgrew and the others were p***ed off by the treatment of Lien as well.

As has been quantified many times by myself (who no one believes ) and now by Christopher Bennett in the new ST Mag, Kate had the most screentime of any character in Voyager--even after Jeri arrived.

She was never in danger of being eclipsed onscreen.

If those in charge had had the ability to run the show instead of creating this situation in the first place, ALL the main characters would have had their share of the screen time, just like they had in seasons 1-3.

In seasons 1-3 some had much more time than others. It was never an even playing field.

You're right about that. Janeway and Chakotay were supposed to be the main characters. Kes, Neelix, Kim and The Doctor were supposed to be a little more in the background (at least The Doctor was that kind of character to start with) while Tuvok, Paris and Torres were somewhere between that. But ALL of them did get their fair share of screen time. In the later seasons most focus were put on Seven, Janeway and The Doctor while the others were actually shoved aside. Chakotay and Tuvok were definitely those who suffered most from the changes.

 

[exodus]

Suffered exactly what?

By not getting more stories or more screen time.

Robert Picardo asked for more time to play his character. Mulgrew was fighting for equal screen time with Ryan, so what room was there left for anybody else? We could of had more Tuvok, Chakotay, Be'Lanna & Paris, hell even more Neelix but how could they, if others are trying to hog up the spot light due to jealousy? How would Lien, who is shy and reserved naturally ever get her fair shot in all of that?

We as an audience suffered due to all of that too because it denied this show of reaching it's full potential.

It sounds like you're blaming Voyager not reaching it's full potential on Mulgrew which isn't fair. Mulgrew did have some valid points about the first Trek with a woman captain resorting to adding a sex symbol to boost ratings. If you read her interviews she never personally insulted Ryan.

I don't need to read interviews, I've heard the woman say infront of a room full of convention goers when asked if her and Ryan got along, her reply was "No!". Besides, I never said she insulted Ryan, I said she fought for equal screne time because she didn't want to be upstaged by a younger woman. A catfight would also imply Ryan fought with her as well, she didn't.

TOS, TNG & DS9 all used sex symbols to grab an audience, from the half nude Orion Slave girl to Ds9 giving in to fans request by putting Dax in a swin suit. Nobody ever took issue with any of that until Mulgrew.

 

[Tachyon]

^And how is a random Orion Slave girl dancing six seconds on screen per episode compared to one of the main characters? Like Seven would say - your comparison is flawed.

 

[teya]

^And how is a random Orion Slave girl dancing six seconds on screen per episode compared to one of the main characters? Like Seven would say - your comparison is flawed.

Maybe, but this kind of titillation has been part of Trek since TOS.

I've always chosen to look at Seven's costume as ironic, rather than sexist. She looks the way she does, but she's far from sexy. And it seems to me to be an overreaction by women to the costume. Do we really want to say that someone who looks like Seven can't be a strong, intelligent, competent woman? IMO, that's what the focus on her looks says.

In the new Star Trek Mag, Christopher Bennett notes that Seven and Spock are very similar in that they were breakout characters, considered sexy. Yet Spock never got the backlash Seven did.

Since the backlash against Seven comes mostly from women, as a woman, I find that, rather curious...

 

[kimc]

In the new Star Trek Mag, Christopher Bennett notes that Seven and Spock are very similar in that they were breakout characters, considered sexy. Yet Spock never got the backlash Seven did.

Spock was considered sexy without having to walk around with his shirt off or without the camera doing crotch shots - although I'm sure there are many women who wouldn't be complaining if that were the case.

 

[teya]

In the new Star Trek Mag, Christopher Bennett notes that Seven and Spock are very similar in that they were breakout characters, considered sexy. Yet Spock never got the backlash Seven did.

Spock was considered sexy without having to walk around with his shirt off or without the camera doing crotch shots - although I'm sure there are many women who wouldn't be complaining if that were the case.

And the fact that not many women would compain if that were the case proves my point, doesn't it? There's a double standard.

Again, do those who complain about the catsuit really think that a woman who looks like Seven can't be intelligent, competent, and strong? Because, by elevating the catsuit to the proportions you do, that's what ends up coming across.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well what we are all really complaining about is the complication of the manipulation they are using to snare us by our genitals. Sevens boobies are insulting but Spocks eyebrows are intriguing.

Brannon and friends laughably treats us like Pakleds most of the time.