What if Kes had stayed instead and...

[Guy Gardener]

Compromise. Would they have let Jen stay if she got a boobjob?

Tom "Where did those puppies come from??!!"

Kes "Ocampan Growthspurt."

Tom "Puberty?"

Kes "Sounds about right."

Anyone with ginormous boobies could have "saved" the show.

 

[Warp Coil]

I don't see how keeping Kes would have been any worse than keeping Harry. I mean, really, did he have any interesting character traits? Did he do anything significant over the course of the 7 seasons? Absolutely not. The problem with Kes - and many, many other characters in the VOY/ENT era - is that the writers never took the time to make them interesting, multi-faceted people. Janeway, the Doctor, B'Elanna and eventually Seven of Nine received a lot of character development. Chakotay, Tuvok, Harry, Tom, Kes and Neelix? Pretty underdeveloped, if you ask me.

The most interesting bits of Kes were were developing mental powers, and her Ocampan life cycle. If Kes had made it to the seventh season, there would have been the potential for some interesting stories about her impending death, and whether or not the crew would try to find a way to save her. There could have been some great drama involving the Doctor struggling to find a way to prolong her life because he doesn't want her to die.

 

[kimc]

If kes had stayed, Voyager probably would have been canceled after the 4th season. She would have brought the show down with her.

That statement is downright ridiculous. I also find it provocative.

As a matter of fact, the only time you show up here is to write some nasty and provoking one-line comment about Kes and/or Jennifer Lien.

This is called trolling. Now that might be allowed on the startrek.com forum but I don't think it is allowed here.

That is a very interesting idea but Jennifer Lien would have screwed it up because of her poor acting abilities

Jennifer Lien's acting abilities gave her an important role in the highly rewarded movie "American History X". That's more thhan many other Star trek actors have achieved.

Josh_Lyman: Please read the board rules particularly the sections on trolling if you wish to continue posting here.

Lynx: Please leave the modding to the mods.

Any comments to pm.

 

[exodus]

That statement is downright ridiculous. I also find it provocative.

As a matter of fact, the only time you show up here is to write some nasty and provoking one-line comment about Kes and/or Jennifer Lien.

This is called trolling. Now that might be allowed on the startrek.com forum but I don't think it is allowed here.

Are you a MOD now?

No. I'm only pointing out the obvious.

We saw Kes' future in "Before & After", it wasn't very interesting.

She never used or explored her abilities, she didn't do much of any extraordinary in life and didn't achieve anything she couldn't have on Ocampa. I think the writers basical told us, they didn't have much of a plan for Kes going forward.

Well, they didn't have much of a plan for the other characters either, as we could see in the later seasons of the show.

As for Kes, she was never dull. I could easily point out 8-10 dull, or at least rather bland Star Trek characters and Kes is not among them.

Kes was smart and brave. In a way a complement to more standard female action characters like Janeway, Torres and Seven.

Maybe to you, not to me.

Kes was the the dullest main cast member of any Trek I've seen, especially if they weren't going to explore her aging or abilities. Smart and brave can also describe the family dog, I don't find that special. Harry atleast made for a good victim character & Wang could read technobabble like a champ.

I see Janeway & Torres picking up the mantal of strong woman in leadership started by Kira. Seven picks up after Jadzia Dax, an incredably beautiful woman not to be underestimated due to the knowledge she has. Kes too me is a throw back to TNG, a care giver not a leader. I don't see Kes fitting the progressive female image Voyager had going for it.

 

[Lynx]

Are you a MOD now?

No. I'm only pointing out the obvious.

We saw Kes' future in "Before & After", it wasn't very interesting.

She never used or explored her abilities, she didn't do much of any extraordinary in life and didn't achieve anything she couldn't have on Ocampa. I think the writers basical told us, they didn't have much of a plan for Kes going forward.

Well, they didn't have much of a plan for the other characters either, as we could see in the later seasons of the show.

As for Kes, she was never dull. I could easily point out 8-10 dull, or at least rather bland Star Trek characters and Kes is not among them.

Kes was smart and brave. In a way a complement to more standard female action characters like Janeway, Torres and Seven.

Maybe to you, not to me.

Kes was the the dullest main cast member of any Trek I've seen, especially if they weren't going to explore her aging or abilities. Smart and brave can also describe the family dog, I don't find that special. Harry atleast made for a good victim character & Wang could read technobabble like a champ.

My statement stands. Kes is a great character and there are characters who are much more dull than her.

By the way, how come you only post in Kes threads?

 

[exodus]

No. I'm only pointing out the obvious.



Well, they didn't have much of a plan for the other characters either, as we could see in the later seasons of the show.

As for Kes, she was never dull. I could easily point out 8-10 dull, or at least rather bland Star Trek characters and Kes is not among them.

Kes was smart and brave. In a way a complement to more standard female action characters like Janeway, Torres and Seven.

Maybe to you, not to me.

Kes was the the dullest main cast member of any Trek I've seen, especially if they weren't going to explore her aging or abilities. Smart and brave can also describe the family dog, I don't find that special. Harry atleast made for a good victim character & Wang could read technobabble like a champ.

My statement stands. Kes is a great character and there are characters who are much more dull than her.

By the way, how come you only post in Kes threads?

I post in many forums all over the entire board, you already know this because you've been a member here just as long as I have. Why do you worship her like a God?


I don't question where you post, do I?
Don't go digging for trouble, Lynx.

 

[Lynx]

I don't see how keeping Kes would have been any worse than keeping Harry. I mean, really, did he have any interesting character traits? Did he do anything significant over the course of the 7 seasons? Absolutely not. The problem with Kes - and many, many other characters in the VOY/ENT era - is that the writers never took the time to make them interesting, multi-faceted people. Janeway, the Doctor, B'Elanna and eventually Seven of Nine received a lot of character development. Chakotay, Tuvok, Harry, Tom, Kes and Neelix? Pretty underdeveloped, if you ask me.

The most interesting bits of Kes were were developing mental powers, and her Ocampan life cycle. If Kes had made it to the seventh season, there would have been the potential for some interesting stories about her impending death, and whether or not the crew would try to find a way to save her. There could have been some great drama involving the Doctor struggling to find a way to prolong her life because he doesn't want her to die.

Personally I find Kes's personality the most interesting with the character. She's nice and friendly but also smart, brave and curious.

One interesting ability is her way to overcome obstacles by simply moving around them and attack them from another angle, just like she did in "Resolutions" when she persuaded Tuvok to go back after Janeway and Chakotay. When Kim tried the same thing, Tuvok almost had him face a court-martial.

Or in "Jetrel" when Neelix is blaming himself for being a coward who deserted from the army. Kes asks him what the punishment for deserting was and Neelix replies "death". Kes then asks him how he could see himself as a coward when he actually risked his life for something he believed in, in this case the refusal to participate in a war he didn't want any part of.

I agree that her mental abilities are exciting as well (at least they were until "The Gift" when they became ridiculous but there was a reason for that). However, the lifespan was silly and didn't make any sense. No species with such a short lifespan could develope to anything more than a primate.

I do have a feeling that those in charge were about to prolong her lifespan in some way. There were hints for that, most notably in "Cold Fire". It would have saved them from a make-up problem. It's easy to create a Klingon, talaxian or Vidiian with the help of make-up but people made to look old actually look terrible. It looks artificial in some way, more like the result of some disease than real aging.

 

[JNG]

I'd have had her get assimilated by the Borg, then later rescued and deassimilated...only the Borg would have left her with an icy, dominatrix-like personality, and certain "Borg implants" in the chest area if you catch my drift. She'd have ditched the name "Kes" and been known only by a Borg designation. The Doc would have pined for her, Kim would have had the hots but given up rather quickly, but in the end she'd have randomly been in a thing with Chakotay out of left field.

Man, it would have been awesome.

I have to disagree here. That would have been character destruction. It was bad enough with that silly Borg Queen in TNG, wimpering around Picard like some lovesick schoolgirl. The Borg Queen was one of the nails in the Borg coffin.

As for Kes, I think she is a fascinating and interesting character as she is. No need to change that.

In fact, Seven would have been better as a Borg queen (but not wimpy as the original one). They should have gone for that solution for about two seasons, with Seven as Voyager's nemesis. Then she could have ben captured and became the Seven we did see in the later seasons, the one who tried to become human ahgain.

I knew you'd come out and be tweaked by this, no matter how obviously I was kidding. But despite your deep and abiding love of this character who was an airball from day one, the creator of Kes, the actor who played Kes and the studio people who signed both their checks did all agree that Kes either had to be radically altered somehow or get the boot. All kidding aside, I wonder if a story arc where we lost a regular to the Borg for a while and got them back might have been an interesting alternate take on the territory explored with Seven. Kes would still have been out due to stuff going on with the actress, at least for a while, but the possibilities are intriguing.

 

[Lynx]

I'd have had her get assimilated by the Borg, then later rescued and deassimilated...only the Borg would have left her with an icy, dominatrix-like personality, and certain "Borg implants" in the chest area if you catch my drift. She'd have ditched the name "Kes" and been known only by a Borg designation. The Doc would have pined for her, Kim would have had the hots but given up rather quickly, but in the end she'd have randomly been in a thing with Chakotay out of left field.

Man, it would have been awesome.

I have to disagree here. That would have been character destruction. It was bad enough with that silly Borg Queen in TNG, wimpering around Picard like some lovesick schoolgirl. The Borg Queen was one of the nails in the Borg coffin.

As for Kes, I think she is a fascinating and interesting character as she is. No need to change that.

In fact, Seven would have been better as a Borg queen (but not wimpy as the original one). They should have gone for that solution for about two seasons, with Seven as Voyager's nemesis. Then she could have ben captured and became the Seven we did see in the later seasons, the one who tried to become human ahgain.

I knew you'd come out and be tweaked by this, no matter how obviously I was kidding. But despite your deep and abiding love of this character who was an airball from day one, the creator of Kes, the actor who played Kes and the studio people who signed both their checks did all agree that Kes either had to be radically altered somehow or get the boot. All kidding aside, I wonder if a story arc where we lost a regular to the Borg for a while and got them back might have been an interesting alternate take on the territory explored with Seven. Kes would still have been out due to stuff going on with the actress, at least for a while, but the possibilities are intriguing.

I knew that you were kidding but I decided to write down my view anyway in case someone would take your suggestions seriously.

However, I don't understand why "Kes Kes would still have been out due to stuff going on with the actress". If that comment has something to do with certain rumors which have been fabricated, spread and exaggerated, I must inform you that those rumors have never been confirmed in any way.

As for the comment about "the creator of Kes, the actor who played Kes and the studio people who signed both their checks did all agree that Kes either had to be radically altered somehow or get the boot", well most of that are after-constructions made to justify why the character was kicked out, not the exact reason.

As for the suggestion about someone "lost" to the Borg, well we already had that scenario with Seven. Personally I still think that a scenario with Seven as main villain for two seasons after which she would have been captured could have been more interesting.

Or maybe they should have avoided the Borg as much as possible. They started to be uninteresting already in TNG.

 

[exodus]

However, I don't understand why "Kes Kes would still have been out due to stuff going on with the actress". If that comment has something to do with certain rumors which have been fabricated, spread and exaggerated, I must inform you that those rumors have never been confirmed in any way.

Because you've never met the actress in person.

Many who do, even convention promoters have called her behavior unusual.

 

[Praetor]

I think it's an interesting idea. I could see Kes helping rehumanize Seven instead of the Doc, perhaps using her psychic abilities to benefit somehow. Obviously, Seven would probably become the Ops officer, which frankly makes more sense than giving her a non-position as they did.

I wonder if they would have actually let Kes age? If so it would have been interesting if she transitioned from a sisterly relationship to Seven, into more of a mentorship, and then finally Kes dies and the first real human moment Seven has is this - she cries. It would also be interesting if Kes turned into a Jean Grey and came back to life via her psychic powers.

That would have been cool.

 

[Guy Gardener]

O! And every now and then Kes teaches & about how to embrace her ocampaninity instead of sevens humanity, teaching the woman the wrong set of heredity morality each of there species figured out over the last few thousand years. Given that she's a blank slate, why human? Just because she is human it doesn't mean that she couldn't have tried to embrace a "superior" culture like Vulcaninity for instance? Plenty of non humans worth emulating... because lets face it, neither the Doctor or Kes are qualified to teach 7 about how to be a good human being, but they seem to have it pat down for how to be a decent "person".

 

[Praetor]

True enough.

 

[Lynx]

However, I don't understand why "Kes Kes would still have been out due to stuff going on with the actress". If that comment has something to do with certain rumors which have been fabricated, spread and exaggerated, I must inform you that those rumors have never been confirmed in any way.

Because you've never met the actress in person.

Many who do, even convention promoters have called her behavior unusual.

So what? There are a lot of "unusual" persons in showbiz. William Shatner is said not to be the nicest person around but no one fabricates any rumors about him.

I must admit that I do find the constant slurs against Jennifer Lien distasteful, to say the least.

 

[Lynx]

I think it's an interesting idea. I could see Kes helping rehumanize Seven instead of the Doc, perhaps using her psychic abilities to benefit somehow. Obviously, Seven would probably become the Ops officer, which frankly makes more sense than giving her a non-position as they did.

I wonder if they would have actually let Kes age? If so it would have been interesting if she transitioned from a sisterly relationship to Seven, into more of a mentorship, and then finally Kes dies and the first real human moment Seven has is this - she cries. It would also be interesting if Kes turned into a Jean Grey and came back to life via her psychic powers.

That would have been cool.

I do agree with some of your points here. If someone would have been a great support for Seven, the it would have been Kes.

Just remember The Doctor in the beginning of the series. He was nothing but a hologram, programmed with bad personal behavior and almost everyone on the ship found him annoying. But not Kes!

She showed compassion for The Doctor, she told him that he was actually a sentient being despite being only a hologram and helped The Doctor to start looking at himself as such as well. She also made the crew start treating The Doctor with respect and in a short time, everyone saw The Doctor as a colleague instead of just a program. Not to mention that she actually saved The Doctor too, in "The Swarm" when she came up with a brilliant solution for the problem.

If Kes could do that for a program, she would have had even better chance with a living person.

As for the aging and death scene, I could live without that. I've had more than enought of such scenes in syrupy soap operas. Besides that, as I've pointed out before, there would have been problems with the make up. Actors with make up which would make them look old just look terrible, it looks more like some disease than real aging.

As for the "Jean Grey" thing, now that's actually interesting. But a prolonging of the lifespan would have been better.

 

[exodus]

However, I don't understand why "Kes Kes would still have been out due to stuff going on with the actress". If that comment has something to do with certain rumors which have been fabricated, spread and exaggerated, I must inform you that those rumors have never been confirmed in any way.

Because you've never met the actress in person.

Many who do, even convention promoters have called her behavior unusual.

So what? There are a lot of "unusual" persons in showbiz. William Shatner is said not to be the nicest person around but no one fabricates any rumors about him.

I must admit that I do find the constant slurs against Jennifer Lien distasteful, to say the least.

What are you even talking about? People have written entire books about the rumors and details of William Shatner.

If being called "unusual" is a slur in your book, then you should read what people have to say about Robert Beltran, Avery Brooks, Kate Mulgrew or tons of other celebs. Even you yourself have used rumors about other actors to deflect them from Lien. How is that any less distasteful and not slanderous? If you can do it, others can too.

No actor or celeb. is immune to public opinion & critique. It's part of the job they're willing accept when they step in front of the camera. Only those that don't understand that fact end up making spectacls of themselves like Chris Crocker crying to leave Britney alone.

 

[Lynx]

Because you've never met the actress in person.

Many who do, even convention promoters have called her behavior unusual.

So what? There are a lot of "unusual" persons in showbiz. William Shatner is said not to be the nicest person around but no one fabricates any rumors about him.

I must admit that I do find the constant slurs against Jennifer Lien distasteful, to say the least.

What are you even talking about? People have written entire books about the rumors and details of William Shatner.

If being called "unusual" is a slur in your book, then you should read what people have to say about Robert Beltran, Avery Brooks, Kate Mulgrew or tons of other celebs. Even you yourself have used rumors about other actors to deflect them from Lien. How is that any less distasteful and not slanderous? If you can do it, others can too.

No actor or celeb. is immune to public opinion & critique. It's part of the job they're willing accept when they step in front of the camera. Only those that don't understand that fact end up making spectacls of themselves like Chris Crocker crying to leave Britney alone.

Well, I'm not only referring to the "unusual" comment in this matter, I'm referring to much worse things.

As for me using rumors about other actors to deflect them from Lien, I guess that the only rumor I have referred to in that case is the rumor which did start about another actor when it come to certain things and I did at least have the grace not to name who it was and also had the grace to state that this rumor has never been confirmed either.

As for spectacles, there are certain people making spectacles of themselves on certain forums which is a reason that I avoid posting there. Fortunately this forum is friendly (and well-moderated as well) and I think that it's in our common interest to keep it that way too.

 

[exodus]

So what? There are a lot of "unusual" persons in showbiz. William Shatner is said not to be the nicest person around but no one fabricates any rumors about him.

I must admit that I do find the constant slurs against Jennifer Lien distasteful, to say the least.

What are you even talking about? People have written entire books about the rumors and details of William Shatner.

If being called "unusual" is a slur in your book, then you should read what people have to say about Robert Beltran, Avery Brooks, Kate Mulgrew or tons of other celebs. Even you yourself have used rumors about other actors to deflect them from Lien. How is that any less distasteful and not slanderous? If you can do it, others can too.

No actor or celeb. is immune to public opinion & critique. It's part of the job they're willing accept when they step in front of the camera. Only those that don't understand that fact end up making spectacls of themselves like Chris Crocker crying to leave Britney alone.

Well, I'm not only referring to the "unusual" comment in this matter, I'm referring to much worse things.

As for me using rumors about other actors to deflect them from Lien, I guess that the only rumor I have referred to in that case is the rumor which did start about another actor when it come to certain things and I did at least have the grace not to name who it was and also had the grace to state that this rumor has never been confirmed either.

As for spectacles, there are certain people making spectacles of themselves on certain forums which is a reason that I avoid posting there. Fortunately this forum is friendly (and well-moderated as well) and I think that it's in our common interest to keep it that way too.

I'll keep that in mind next time you personally question me why I post in certain threads.

 

[kimc]

Okay - for those just tuning in the thread is about what it would have been like if Kes stayed on Voyager. What certain posters are willing or not willing to let go shouldn't be entering into it.

Carry on.

 

[Lynx]

So let's go back on topic then.

I think that Kes could have contributed a lot to the show if she had stayed. She would have been a good support to Seven, she would have been a good counselor as well and her mental abilities could have been used for some interesting episodes.