Yes, I don't think we will come to an accord, but before we drop it, let me ask: if Thanos left the main MCU timeline in 2014 to travel to the future (and die), how was he still there to fight the Avengers in 2018?
Spoilers What If...? discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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Yes, I don't think we will come to an accord, but before we drop it, let me ask: if Thanos left the main MCU timeline in 2014 to travel to the future (and die), how was he still there to fight the Avengers in 2018?
In my opinion there are two possibilities:
1 - Ince all the Avengers who had traveled back to do what they did returned - that timeline cease to exist because the only reason it came back into existence was because they went there to do what they needed to do. Remember that Thanos came through pretty much right after nebula returned - so while the decay/disintegration of that variant timeline happened It wasn't instantaneous; and Thanos and his troops were able to come to the future before they were dissolved into nothingness, (only to be dissolved later by Tony Stark and the Infinity Gauntlet.
)2 - The TVA was lying to Loki when they stated that what the Avengers did was 'ordained' and no variance was created. IE - There was a variance created but the TVA went in and immediately cleaned it up and pruned it before it got too far along.
Honestly, did we "need" an arc, connecting story, or something along those lines? Wasn't this just a bit more fun as some one-shots going into these various, well, "What if" scenarios? Wasn't there just something more meaningful to there being this universe/timeline/whatever of a centuries old immortal Dr. Strange trapped in a microuniverse prism of his own creation having let loss and darkness consume him to the point of destroying literally everything? But now, he's not alone for eternity in mourning, but gets to meet up with the Watcher and potentially save a (several?) universes? Sigh.
They could have really just kept going with this kind of stuff and didn't need to generate this thing with an Ultron. It'll still show to be interesting and all, but, I dunno, don't think it needed this.
Fiction is never really about need, since it's recreational. It's about choices. And this is following the MCU's established pattern -- start out with distinct stories about separate characters, give them their solo stories, then build up to a big crossover at the climax. They did it with the Avengers, Netflix did it with the Defenders, and now we get it with the, uhh, Whatiffers.
I agree it's rather formulaic, but the best thing about it is that it's an opportunity to actually tell a story about Uatu rather than just having him be the narrator. In the comics, Uatu was already a familiar character from The Fantastic Four and elsewhere by the time he became the host of What If...? But here, we met him for the first time, so if they hadn't done a story like this, he never would've had a chance to grow beyond just being Rod Serling.
I would have been fine with that approach and to be honest it's mostly been that. I do kind of like how subtle the arc has been. I feel like they executed it well so I am liking what they did.
Honestly, did we "need" an arc, connecting story, or something along those lines? Wasn't this just a bit more fun as some one-shots going into these various, well, "What if" scenarios? Wasn't there just something more meaningful to there being this universe/timeline/whatever of a centuries old immortal Dr. Strange trapped in a microuniverse prism of his own creation having let loss and darkness consume him to the point of destroying literally everything? But now, he's not alone for eternity in mourning, but gets to meet up with the Watcher and potentially save a (several?) universes? Sigh.
They could have really just kept going with this kind of stuff and didn't need to generate this thing with an Ultron. It'll still show to be interesting and all, but, I dunno, don't think it needed this.
And the other interesting thing about how they did it was that in the Fantastic Four comic; The most taboo thing Uatu, The Watcher did to intervene in a situation was to appear to the group, and pass along knowledge they didn't have. In the actual comics continuity he first appeared in FF issue #13 when the FF decided to finally complete their aborted trip to the moon to check out the mysterious "Blue Area" which turned out to be an abandoned ancient alien city, where Uatu resided, conducted research and observed humanity. Uatu technically wasn't breaking his society's taboo because both the FF and the red ghost had invaded his home, and he was allowed to defend himself / repel intruders.
The next time Uatu appeared,, was FF issue #48, and that was the first time he broke his society's rules by attempting to hide the earth from being detected (surrounding it with a large group of fake asteroids), andappearing to the FF and warning them that the herald of Galactus - the Silver Surfer - was heading towards Earth; and if he signaled his Master, Earth was doomed. In the end he went even further by helping the Human Torch travel to the home of Galactus, and showed him what to retrieve to make Galactus agree to leave Earth as it was.
^^^
As an FF fan I am really hoping we get a feature film that follows a lot of the original Galactus / Silver Surfer first appearance story, including Uatu, the Watcher appearing to the FF, etc. But we'll see if the MCU even gets to that point with the FF stories it ultimately tells. But given they're actually going to do a "Celestial" storyline in the upcoming Eternals film; and they've already introduced ego the living planet, with Guardians of the Galaxy - yeah they should also bring in Galactus In all his purple and blue armored glory.
But yeah the above is just to illustrate one thing I did enjoy about the previous What If episode; and that's the fact that Uatu can and actually will fight. I don't know if they've done the stories with him like what we saw on this episode of What If; but during my time of reading Marvel comics, they never depicted Uatu or any other member of his race actually engaging in combat; so that was both interesting, surprising and fun to this old Marvel comics fan.
Catching up...
I'd say I enjoyed the Thor episode somewhat despite myself. It's dopey and fluffy and insubstantial, but after the last few episodes, maybe the show "earned" an episode like that. My enjoyment is probably most evident in the way I was disappointed by the ending rather than intrigued...I'd settled in and was having fun with this universe/timeline, and having things get serious at the end was jarring. I'm sure it's what TPTB were looking for, so mission accomplished, but still...
As for the Ultron episode...I'd read enough "What If..." to recall that there were times when that series stopped being an anthology and started having arcs between issues, and I'd wondered from the beginning whether this series would go there as well. Question answered. As for the episode itself...I think Uatu was a bit melodramatic when he said this timeline/universe breaks his heart, but it was certainly a downer. It was intriguing and predictably ominious to see Ultron become aware of the existence of alternate timeline/universes. The bit with Thanos didn't bother me...as other posters have noted, I think Ultron just took initiative and acted before Thanos could defend himself. The return of Zola was an interesting twist, though I too have questions as to whether replacing Ultron with Zola would be much of an improvement...OTOH, Zola's likely not as interested in multiversal genocide, so that would be a plus. I'm curious as to the fates of other heroes in this timeline...it's hard for me to believe Ultron wiped all of them out...but also, with the Infinity Stones, why didn't he just do a snap? It was a bit of a disappointment that Ultron seemed to use the stones more for raw power than anything else, but perhaps he's just not fully aware of their capabilities? Thanos was at least a bit imaginative with them.
Looking forward to the next episode for sure.
I'd say I enjoyed the Thor episode somewhat despite myself. It's dopey and fluffy and insubstantial, but after the last few episodes, maybe the show "earned" an episode like that. My enjoyment is probably most evident in the way I was disappointed by the ending rather than intrigued...I'd settled in and was having fun with this universe/timeline, and having things get serious at the end was jarring. I'm sure it's what TPTB were looking for, so mission accomplished, but still...
As for the Ultron episode...I'd read enough "What If..." to recall that there were times when that series stopped being an anthology and started having arcs between issues, and I'd wondered from the beginning whether this series would go there as well. Question answered. As for the episode itself...I think Uatu was a bit melodramatic when he said this timeline/universe breaks his heart, but it was certainly a downer. It was intriguing and predictably ominious to see Ultron become aware of the existence of alternate timeline/universes. The bit with Thanos didn't bother me...as other posters have noted, I think Ultron just took initiative and acted before Thanos could defend himself. The return of Zola was an interesting twist, though I too have questions as to whether replacing Ultron with Zola would be much of an improvement...OTOH, Zola's likely not as interested in multiversal genocide, so that would be a plus. I'm curious as to the fates of other heroes in this timeline...it's hard for me to believe Ultron wiped all of them out...but also, with the Infinity Stones, why didn't he just do a snap? It was a bit of a disappointment that Ultron seemed to use the stones more for raw power than anything else, but perhaps he's just not fully aware of their capabilities? Thanos was at least a bit imaginative with them.
Looking forward to the next episode for sure.
Strange? Unless the writers want him to win and he uses an obscure magcal gadget or spell to incapacitate Thanos i don't think so. I don't see Strange as a direct damage dealer, his strengths lie elsewhere.
Wanda perhaps, we don't see how far she would have kicked Thanos' ass in Endgame when he pulled the emergency card and had his ship blanket the battlefield with shots. It looked though that Wanda might have succeeded in killing him if not for that interruption.
Carol Danvers might have been capable of doing the same though if she went into the fight with a kill mindset, she barely flinched at attacks that sent Hulk to the ground.
I know this is off topic but which "What If...?" comics would people here like to see turned into episodes?
I was thinking "What If... Venom Had Possessed the Punisher" or "What If? Peter Parker Became The Punisher?", "What if the Hulk had evolved into the Maestro?", "What if.. Wolverine was a Horseman of War?", "What if Daredevil had lived in feudal Japan?".
I was thinking "What If... Venom Had Possessed the Punisher" or "What If? Peter Parker Became The Punisher?", "What if the Hulk had evolved into the Maestro?", "What if.. Wolverine was a Horseman of War?", "What if Daredevil had lived in feudal Japan?".
It's funny that all most all those characters are problematic in the MCU.
Venom and Spider-Man are "on loan" to Sony.
Hulk also has a tangled rights issue.
Daredevil and Punisher are part of the redheaded step children that were Marvel TV.
Wolverine is part of the X-Franchise that has yet to integrated into the MCU.
What If...What If...? could include things outside the current MCU?
I was hoping for an aging butler.
Okay, so they managed to tie it all together, and to give quick bits of closure to most of the previous worlds. Mostly just big action without a lot of time for reflection, but some decent character beats here and there.
The Watcher's plan was messy as hell, but I guess that's what you get when you let the audience write the story. Essentially this was Uatu's crossover fanfiction. At the end, I wish the Watcher had given a better defense to Nat for why he doesn't interfere even to save universes, something about preserving people's free will.
The version of Gamora here confused me, since I couldn't remember her world. I guess she was a ringer, new to this episode rather than returning from any of the others. I guess they covered all the other universes in one way or another:
Kind of impressive, I guess, that they managed to tie them all together. And they resolved the cliffhangers -- T'Challa saved Quill from Ego, Widow saved Fury's world from Loki, Pepper and Shuri exposed Killmonger (who was then trapped in a dimensional bubble anyway), and Party Thor's universe was saved when Ultron was defeated. That's still three totally destroyed worlds out of nine, though (assuming Gauntlet Gamora's world turned out okay). Well, one destroyed Earth, two destroyed universes. It's our arrogance that we tend to equate the two.
One doesn't expect much credibility from these things, but one thing that I found particularly hard to buy was when Carter told the team to keep hitting Ultron and not give him a moment to think. He's an AI! He should think so fast that the others are practically standing still from his perspective. And that's even without the Time Stone.
The Watcher's plan was messy as hell, but I guess that's what you get when you let the audience write the story. Essentially this was Uatu's crossover fanfiction. At the end, I wish the Watcher had given a better defense to Nat for why he doesn't interfere even to save universes, something about preserving people's free will.
The version of Gamora here confused me, since I couldn't remember her world. I guess she was a ringer, new to this episode rather than returning from any of the others. I guess they covered all the other universes in one way or another:
- Captain Carter
- Star Lord T'Challa
- "Replacement Avengers" at the end
- Strange Supreme
- Zombie Scarlet Witch et al.
- Killmonger
- Party Thor
- Infinity Ultron, Black Widow, Zola, and the whole situation
Kind of impressive, I guess, that they managed to tie them all together. And they resolved the cliffhangers -- T'Challa saved Quill from Ego, Widow saved Fury's world from Loki, Pepper and Shuri exposed Killmonger (who was then trapped in a dimensional bubble anyway), and Party Thor's universe was saved when Ultron was defeated. That's still three totally destroyed worlds out of nine, though (assuming Gauntlet Gamora's world turned out okay). Well, one destroyed Earth, two destroyed universes. It's our arrogance that we tend to equate the two.
One doesn't expect much credibility from these things, but one thing that I found particularly hard to buy was when Carter told the team to keep hitting Ultron and not give him a moment to think. He's an AI! He should think so fast that the others are practically standing still from his perspective. And that's even without the Time Stone.
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