Spoilers What If...? discussion thread

[Seven of Five]

Wow, that was quite the showstopper!

This whole series has been quite a ride, and can't believe we're already down to the last one next week. Thankfully, there is a season 2!

 

[FPAlpha]

One thing this and last week's episode did prompt was the question; just how powerful is Captain Marvel?

According to Marvel she was the most powerful superhero at the time of Endgame, more powerful than Thor and Hulk as evident how she easily shrugged off hits by Thanos without blinking ( until he boosted his attack with an Infinity Stone).

No idea if the powercurve will go up, Eternals might be the ones who are more powerful ( at least one or two).

 

[Mage]

Thanos is only ubermegasuper strong when USING the Infinity Stones. Sure, without them he is a force to be reckoned with. No doubt. But when he gets cut in half so fast and doesn't get a change to react with one of the Stones..... Big Purple is as dead as anyone.

That scene wasn't to show how strong UltronVision was. But how ruthless and calculating. He reasoned within less than a second what was unusual about Thanos, because he's aware of what that little gem in his head is. Maybe he doesn't know that it's an Infinity Stone, but he knows it makes him powerful. Seeing a being appear out of nowhere with 5 similar stones, within that second he understands they are power, that it brought a non-human to Earth and this creature is bold and powerful. And immediatly decides to kill it. Thanos simply has no time to use a Stone to react. Because it's not as if the Stones are always in 'one-mode' and protect him constantly.

Again, the scene was to very simply demonstrate again how ruthless UltronVision is.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Thanos didn't have time to react. He was barely able to look around before getting the worst splitting headache in that universe. It doesn't matter how many Infinity Stones you have, you can't use them if you've split in half.

 

[JD]

I loved the last couple episodes.
The party Thor episode was just hilarious from start to finish. Loved all of the cameos.
This week's was awesome, it was nice to finally see that all of this was building to something. It was cool to finally see Uatu actually become a part of the story this time, rather than just a Watcher and narrator. I loved his reactions as Hawkeye and Black Widow were searing through the files.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I love that Uatu is clearly a fanboy of the heroes and starts yelling at the screen when they are in trouble.

 

[YLu]

Boy people online really get bent out of shape about the Ultron vs. Thanos scene.

Y'know, I'm actually surprised that it bugs me the way it does, considering I normally couldn't care less about power level stuff.

I think it's because it feels like such an obvious narrative shortcut here. "And then Ultron defeats Thanos and takes his Infinity Stones?" "How?" "Um, he catches him off-guard, even though this is a situation in which Thanos probably wouldn't be off-guard." It feels like a convenience purely designed to quickly get from point A to B rather than any logical consequence of this What If scenario...

Third: Thanos doesn't know Ultron and probably didn't expect an immediately attack. The immediate attack by Ultron with maximum force is what sells this scene to me. If Thanos went in expecting an immediate attack and had the stones activated then i don't think Ultron woud have won, instead he was able to suckerpunch Thanos.

That's where it loses me. It feels contrived that Thanos wouldn't be on guard here. It's not as if Vision jumped him as he was getting out of the shower. Thanos was the one seeking Vision out, and he of all people knows how deadly a Stone is. I just can't buy that the same guy who was so successful in the regular MCU could be so careless here.

 

[Jayson1]

According to Marvel she was the most powerful superhero at the time of Endgame, more powerful than Thor and Hulk as evident how she easily shrugged off hits by Thanos without blinking ( until he boosted his attack with an Infinity Stone).

No idea if the powercurve will go up, Eternals might be the ones who are more powerful ( at least one or two).

I think Wanda and maybe Doctor Strange might be more powerful.

 

[Christopher]

It feels contrived that Thanos wouldn't be on guard here.

I'm sure he was, but that doesn't mean he knew exactly what he'd be facing. For all his power, he didn't seem to have accelerated thinking or reaction time.

If anything, the question for me is the other way around. I can buy an AI thinking fast enough to defeat any opponent before they even have time to register the attack. The problem is, why didn't Ultron defeat everyone else just as easily?

 

[FPAlpha]

I'm sure he was, but that doesn't mean he knew exactly what he'd be facing. For all his power, he didn't seem to have accelerated thinking or reaction time.

If anything, the question for me is the other way around. I can buy an AI thinking fast enough to defeat any opponent before they even have time to register the attack. The problem is, why didn't Ultron defeat everyone else just as easily?

Because of.. things.

The only believable development when it comes to AI i saw was in Her, when the AI ( coincidentally voiced by Scarlett Johansson) revealed that even though it felt her attention was completely focused on the main character she was actually dividing her time and attention equally between thousands ( or was it even millions) of people who apparently all believed they were the sole person for her ( until she decided to call it quits with humanity altogether because they couldn't keep up with her development speed).
That would be the true power of an AI ( even Data has occasionally shown to be vastly superior to biological people) but then again the MCU doesn't go that deep usually, they're about characters and cool action and not specialized topics and issues.

 

[StarMan]

"You cannot calculate my will."

That was pretty awesome.

I don't know the ins and outs of the comics - I knew The Watcher was powerful, but going toe-to-toe with a being possessing all 6 Infinity Stones? Wow.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

People talk about Thanos' reaction time, does he actually need to react? Like I would just assume he'd have activated defenses when he went into conquer mode. Does he actually have to see something coming to defend himself? Would he be defenseless in the dark?

 

[Christopher]

People talk about Thanos' reaction time, does he actually need to react? Like I would just assume he'd have activated defenses when he went into conquer mode. Does he actually have to see something coming to defend himself? Would he be defenseless in the dark?

Thor injured him with Stormbreaker. Reputedly, Thor would have killed him if he'd aimed for the head. Canonically, therefore, having the Gauntlet did not make Thanos invulnerable.

 

[Jedi_Master]

This was a fantastic episode, and it shocked me on several levels. First, it revealed that there really is a larger story at play here, one that elevates the MCU to previously un-thought of levels. This was sold as an anthology series, so sneaking in a larger overall arc is genius.
Also, what a nail biter! This episode finally told a story where there are REAL consequences if the heroes don't win. I have never been on the edge of my seat before during anything MCU related... it was an incredible feeling.
11 out of 10 stars.

 

[valkyrie013]

Thanos "could" have had some forethought and created a time loop like Dr strange did in the movie with the time stone..
I would have. He used the stone to restore vision.
Owell. I didnt have a problem with the slice and dice.

 

[UssGlenn]

They aren't going to go to give us an epic Ultron/Thanos fight, it's not what the story is about. Either Ultron gets the drop on him or Thanos wins because he has 5 Stones. The only other option is they cut away and we don't see what happens at all, and that's even less satisfying.

 

[Noname Given]

I liked it well enough, though there were some minor issues here and there. It's a bit iffy that Ultron with one stone can insta-kill Thanos with five of them. And I've got to say neither Natasha nor Clint really feel like the characters I know here, though I suppose these events are the most devastating they've ever encountered, so it's not implausible that they've been deeply affected. Also, I like the Zola angle overall, but if I understand their plan correctly wouldn't it just end up with Arnim Zola in control of a super robot body and all six Infinity Stones? I mean, he'd still be an improvement over the guy who wants to destroy literally everything but, eh...

Yeah your first point was my major issue - Thanos walks through and is near instantly cut in half by the Vision's sun beam (well it was always a solar beam in the comics; don't know if it has different properties in the MCU). Although I guess anything's possible as had Thor 'gone for the head' in Infinity War - Endgame , etc. wouldn't have occurred. But yeah for me they way they've handled the 'Thanos/Infinity Stones ' issue in the various stories runs the range from okay to ludicrous.

Also, given that Ultron nuked the planet - exactly how did Clint get that cybernetic replacement?

Lastly - everyone (including Uatu, The Watcher) thinks the Zola AI is the answer?
^^^
My point - the AI has been shown to be mega-maniacal in it's own right in past interactions; thus how will it lead to a 'better' outcome than the Ultron AI? In other words - here they're just substituting on maniac for another in the end, even if the plan had worked as they envisioned. Maybe Zola would have decided conquering the Multiverse was a good idea now that he had the power. So yeah, the 'solution' didn't come across as a good one to me.

One thing they haven't addressed though is: Do the infinity stones of a given universe still work outside of that particular universe (IE is each 'set' tried to the universe they were formed in?) -- If so, that would make Ultron less powerful by a major order of magnitude.

And then there's the temporal discontinuity between the events of the What If episodes themselves as at the end of the previous What If (Thor the only child) - Uatu SAW Ultron crossing the Multiverse barriers - yet he seems to be unaware of that in this episode until Ultron breaks into his 'multiverse viewing room'.

But yeah aside from the plotholes and nitpicks here, I did enjoy the fight between Uatu and the Multiverse Spanning Ultron. It's neat they are trying even here to have and underlying unifying story element in this series (YMMV of course).

 

[Christopher]

One thing they haven't addressed though is: Do the infinity stones of a given universe still work outside of that particular universe (IE is each 'set' tried to the universe they were formed in?)

Well, yes, as we saw in Endgame, when the Thanos from the alternate 2014 was able to use the Stones in the climax.

And then there's the temporal discontinuity between the events of the What If episodes themselves as at the end of the previous What If (Thor the only child) - Uatu SAW Ultron crossing the Multiverse barriers - yet he seems to be unaware of that in this episode until Ultron breaks into his 'multiverse viewing room'.

That was a little confusing, but I think the idea was that he didn't really understand what he saw there. Presumably the reason he was Watching the "Ultron Won" universe now was to follow up on last week's cliffhanger and understand what it was he'd seen. It does feel a little discontinuous, but then, so does Uatu giving past-tense narration of Ultron noticing him without realizing that Ultron is noticing him in the present. As I mentioned before, maybe his grasp of time and causality is less linear than ours.

 

[Noname Given]

Well, yes, as we saw in Endgame, when the Thanos from the alternate 2014 was able to use the Stones in the climax.

Except it was still the SAME UNIVERSE; just at a different point in time in that Universe. Thanos didn't travel to a completely different Universe in Endgame unlike Ultron in this What If episode. Also, in thinking about it further the series Loki gives the answer and the answer would be no infinity stones don't work outside their originating universe as the Time Keepers were using them as paperweights and they had no power whatsoever in the pocket universe 'He who I will call Immortus' set up for the Time Keepers (before Loki and Sylvie ended that setup).

 

[Christopher]

Except it was still the SAME UNIVERSE; just at a different point in time in that Universe. Thanos didn't travel to a completely different Universe in Endgame unlike Ultron in this What If episode.

Uhh, you're positing a dichotomy that doesn't exist. The entire defining premise of What If...? is that these are alternate timelines, versions of the universe where a specific decision was made differently and a new timeline branched off from that point forward, as seen at the end of Loki season 1 when the branching of the multiverse was unleashed. The 2014 Thanos was from an alternate timeline, a timeline that diverged when the Avengers came back and started altering events -- which, of course, was what allowed that alternate Thanos to become aware of their existence and travel forward to the future of their timeline. That was an alternate timeline from his perspective, because it was a reality where he had not traveled to the future in 2014 but instead had waged the Infinity War, caused the Snap, and been killed nearly a decade later.

Fiction has a sloppy tendency to use the words "timeline" and "universe" interchangeably, but any version of reality that includes Earth, humanity, and specific individuals and events we recognize can only be an alternate timeline of our universe, a branching off from a common origin. A literally separate universe would have no familiar stars, planets, or people, and might not even have the same physical laws that allow planets and life as we know them to exist.

Also, in thinking about it further the series Loki gives the answer and the answer would be no infinity stones don't work outside their originating universe as the Time Keepers were using them as paperweights and they had no power whatsoever in the pocket universe 'He who I will call Immortus' set up for the Time Keepers (before Loki and Sylvie ended that setup).

Which does not make sense because it contradicts Endgame. Maybe the Stones just didn't work in the out-of-time pocket universe. That doesn't prove they wouldn't work anywhere else, especially since Endgame proved that they can.