What I think Star Tek XI will be about

[Cary L. Brown]

Tralah said:

Cary L. Brown said:
But the homage to TWOK is something I'm sort of expecting, too... but instead of Lieutenant Saavik (who was in that same situation) sitting in the Captain's chair, taking the Kobayashi Maru test, it'll be Lieutenant Kirk, CHEATING on the Kobayashi Maru test... and pissing off his academic advisor, Lieutenent Spock, in the process.

Hee! I love the idea of that scene. It's been years since I've seen TWOK, so I hope I'm wrong about this recollection, but didn't Spock ask Kirk how he beat the test? If he did ask him, I don't think they could make the scene work unless they're willing to ignore TWOK, but then that would kind of a lousy way to make a tribute to it.

The line was (from memory)"As I recall, you took the Kobayashi Maru test several times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, UNIQUE."

Spock was DEFINITELY familiar with Kirk's Kobayashi Maru experience... which (since it's sort of a secret... don't want the subjectsto know what to expect going in do ya?) speaks to the point that Spock was probably THERE.

 

[Balthier the Great]

Tamek said:

BalthierTheGreat said:
I dunno. I'm kinda hoping for a curveball.

What if the reason that they're talking about the first Kirk and Spock adventure is because Kirk has been cloned -- and the clone has been somehow manipulated into doing something that Spock has to stop.

That would be a good reason for a flashback. Then you could go two ways -- either have only one plot really going on, (and set up a sequel) or have both happen at the same time. Kinda the way Lost works. The back story sets up the real story, so you have two stories ... sorta. One is present day "stop evil kirk" one is the past "I remember before kirk was evil".

I dunno, I'd see that movie. Maybe that would be too much for one movie.

I believe you have described the plot for Nemesis rather succinctly.

Umm, no, that's what happens in Lost. The flashbacks set up the story in the present. I mean granted that mine was off the top of my head and most Lost flashbacks aren't, but still I think it's possible to make something like that work.

I don't know how having Spock on his deathbed telling Spock Jr. a bedtime story is going to work. Maybe I'm just lacking imagination at this point.

 

[Franklin]

Cary L. Brown said:

Tralah said:

Cary L. Brown said:
But the homage to TWOK is something I'm sort of expecting, too... but instead of Lieutenant Saavik (who was in that same situation) sitting in the Captain's chair, taking the Kobayashi Maru test, it'll be Lieutenant Kirk, CHEATING on the Kobayashi Maru test... and pissing off his academic advisor, Lieutenent Spock, in the process.

Hee! I love the idea of that scene. It's been years since I've seen TWOK, so I hope I'm wrong about this recollection, but didn't Spock ask Kirk how he beat the test? If he did ask him, I don't think they could make the scene work unless they're willing to ignore TWOK, but then that would kind of a lousy way to make a tribute to it.

The line was (from memory)"As I recall, you took the Kobayashi Maru test several times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, UNIQUE."

Spock was DEFINITELY familiar with Kirk's Kobayashi Maru experience... which (since it's sort of a secret... don't want the subjectsto know what to expect going in do ya?) speaks to the point that Spock was probably THERE.

Eh. Kirk and Spock had known each other and confided a lot to one another for years. Kirk could've told him about the test any time. Spock may have even heard it from another officer sometime along the way. Maybe even one of the officers who gave Kirk the commendation.

Also, Spock says he never took the test. He was apparantly not being trained for command at the Academy. So, I can't see why he'd be Kirk's academic advisor.

If it were done in XI, the scene would have to be more than an homage, it'd have to fit into the plot as the scene did in TWOK. In TWOK, the scene meshes with when Spock finally faces his no-win test for real, and Kirk realizes he's not as clever as he thought he was and you can't always cheat death.

 

[RookieBatman]

Franklin said:
Also, Spock says he never took the test. He was apparantly not being trained for command at the Academy. So, I can't see why he'd be Kirk's academic advisor.

Yeah, this doesn't quite feel right to me either. Besides that, it just didn't seem to me that Kirk and Spock knew each other that well in WNMHGB.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Someone else said somewhere (I can't find the post right now) that maybe this film begins with cadet Chekov taking the Kobayashi Maru test, and a Pre-Enterprise newly-promoted Captain Kirk is the Starfleet Academy Observer proctoring the test.

That could be the homage to the test, and how Chekov gets involved with this film. Once Kirk gets command, young cadet/trainee Chekov is assigned to the Enterprise.

Of course this is just wild speculation on my part, and I could be completely wrong.

 

[Franklin]

Two things stick in my mind from time to time. The first is that Nimoy insists that if he'd been in GEN, Spock would've never let Kirk die. That seems important to Nimoy in the Kirk-Spock relationship.
Second, Kirk's line in TSFS after Spock realizes just how much Kirk risked to save him. "You'd do the same for me," Kirk responded. To Spock that probably rings very true. Truer than Kirk may have meant it.

I can't speak to plot points, but as far as using old Spock goes, I'd like to know what he felt after hearing Kirk "died" on Enterprise-B.
Given the circumstances -- no one expected danger that day -- Kirk's "death" was probably a great shock to him. Vulcan or not, he may have felt guilty for not being on E-B with Kirk like he should've been. He'd believe that if he'd been there he could've prevented Kirk's "death." The line, "You'd do the same for me," keeps going through his mind.
He carries that thought for nearly a century until he hears Kirk was alive all along, but died aiding Picard. How would Spock feel about that? Would that relieve his guilt for not being with Kirk on E-B? What would his response be?

Think of what Spock did for Pike. Our pets should be as loyal and show such devotion. Considering that, if at all possible, wouldn't he try to do SOMETHING for Jim Kirk? This has always bothered me. Maybe I should write some fan-fic about it.

 

[Flake]

I don't know about everyone else but I'm sick of waiting already Argh!

 

[Peter the Younger]

Franklin said:
Two things stick in my mind from time to time. The first is that Nimoy insists that if he'd been in GEN, Spock would've never let Kirk die. That seems important to Nimoy in the Kirk-Spock relationship.
Second, Kirk's line in TSFS after Spock realizes just how much Kirk risked to save him. "You'd do the same for me," Kirk responded. To Spock that probably rings very true. Truer than Kirk may have meant it.

I can't speak to plot points, but as far as using old Spock goes, I'd like to know what he felt after hearing Kirk "died" on Enterprise-B.
Given the circumstances -- no one expected danger that day -- Kirk's "death" was probably a great shock to him. Vulcan or not, he may have felt guilty for not being on E-B with Kirk like he should've been. He'd believe that if he'd been there he could've prevented Kirk's "death." The line, "You'd do the same for me," keeps going through his mind.
He carries that thought for nearly a century until he hears Kirk was alive all along, but died aiding Picard. How would Spock feel about that? Would that relieve his guilt for not being with Kirk on E-B? What would his response be?

Think of what Spock did for Pike. Our pets should be as loyal and show such devotion. Considering that, if at all possible, wouldn't he try to do SOMETHING for Jim Kirk? This has always bothered me. Maybe I should write some fan-fic about it.

I think you're right on the money. My wild guesses (assuming Shatner doesn't end up joining the cast) go something like this:

- The frame story is a recollection by Spock, speaking at or around the time of Kirk's funeral (he is presumed dead after the ENT-B incident detailed in GEN, although the script will wisely avoid any detailed mention of the incident);
- The plot will involve Pike being crippled (according to canon, rescuing cadets from a training vessel). Kirk will subsequently have to take command, and earn the crew's - particularly Spock's - respect.
- The action of the last two thirds of the film will probably be dominated by a ship-to-ship duel, against a fearsome but possibly noble adversary (Russell Crowe as a legendary Klingon commander, perhaps? You just know Abrams was watching Master and Commander and said, "Oh, Hey!") Maybe a few shades of "Balance of Terror" in there.

Anyway, that's what I'm hoping for.

 

[Sec31Mike]

^^^
I sure hope the movie has ALOT more than that in it. A major motion picture deserves more than that, especially a Trek movie. I also don't think that falls in with Paramount's plan to make a movie with mass market appeal.

 

[Lumen]

A film can't have more than three of four major themes, or it will lose mass market appeal.

That said, I don't think a battle between two ships a la The Hunt for Red October or Master and Commander is likely, at least as a choice for the subject of the third act. The final confrontation will be physical.

A starship battle may be a driving force in the third act, but it shouldn't serve as much more than a backdrop.

Although, I have to say, Star Trek films have followed that format for the third act an awful lot — I hope Abrams surprises me.

Really, that's what I'm looking forward to most. Abrams is going to surprise me. He always does. I could write 10,000 posts in this forum and I probably wouldn't be any closer to his plan.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
However, NONE of the movies really captured the suspense and drama presented in your two examples. Even TWOK really didn't come all that close to capturing the essence of Red October Master/Commander or even "Balance of Terror."

I really wish one would.

Even Berman TV Trek came closer on a few occasions.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Jackson_Roykirk said:Someone else said somewhere (I can't find the post right now) that maybe this film begins with cadet Chekov taking the Kobayashi Maru test, and a Pre-Enterprise newly-promoted Captain Kirk is the Starfleet Academy Observer proctoring the test.

Except that the Kobayashi Maru test is administered to COMMAND SCHOOL STUDENTS, with the rank of Lieutenant, not to CADETS.

Not every cadet, and not every Starfleet Officer, gets selected to go on the "command path." In fact, until you've served for a number of years, you wouldn't qualify for selection for the command path.

Saavik was a LIEUTENANT. She was attending Command School. She had already served for a number of years. She took the Kobayashi Maru test at that point.

Kirk was at the Academy, as an instructor, as a Lieutenant. Almost certainly, his "instructor" role coincided with his time as as a student at Command School.

Spock never attended Command School. He was not on the command path, he was on the Sciences path. Thus, his advanced course would have been something else entirely from what Kirk went through. Because he never attended Command School, he never took the Kobayashi Maru test. Same with Scotty, or McCoy... none of them were training for command, so they wouldn't have taken this.

Chekov WOULD have taken it, eventually... as would Sulu. But Chekov would have taken it sometime between ST-TMP and ST-TWOK. Sulu would have taken it sometime before TWOK as well (since, at least off-camera, it was supposed to have been the case that he was on the promotion list to Captain at that point).

But NO UNDERClASSMAN CADET WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE KOBAYASHI MARU TEST.

Please... if you dont' want to take my word for this, at least pay attention to what you've seen on-screen. Saavik was the only person we've seen who took it, and she was a Lieutenant, not an underclassman cadet.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

^
^^
I'll take your word for it. It seems plausible that only command school students take the Kobayashi Maru.

But since we know so little about the test, and it was only shown/mentioned in about 7 minutes of TWoK, then we are not absolutey sure that underclassmen don't take it. Most of what you wrote about the test is "fanon" and was not said on screen. Maybe the events at the beginning of TWoK was Mr. Saavik's second time through the test...maybe she also took it as a cadet.

I do agree with you and the widely recognized "fanon" surrounding the Kobayashi Maru Test, and as I said, I was just wildly speculating about Chekov and the test. But if Abrams wants to show an underclassman (or even a 4th-year cadet) taking the test, then there is no canonical reason why it can't be done.

 

[xortex]

Star Trek should be more like the Twilight Zone and be about things and metaphysical ideas, not people or Characters like the movies were. Not simply a stringing of exciting events that have no resemblance to the way things really are and how they should be.

 

[xortex]

I.e., people have to understand and relate to the events, not just the characters. Star Trek is not a drama, but an action adventure.

 

[Sharr Khan]

xortex said:
Star Trek should be more like the Twilight Zone and be about things and metaphysical ideas, not people or Characters like the movies were. Not simply a stringing of exciting events that have no resemblance to the way things really are and how they should be.

Well that's a sure way for this to fail. People go to movies because they care about the PEOPLE. It is at its best when its dealing with Kirk, Spock, and McCoy and their friendship.

And ah Star Trek wasn't ever really Twilight Zone like.

The "Big Ideas" are simply window dressing.

Sharr

 

[Franklin]

Sharr Khan said:

xortex said:
Star Trek should be more like the Twilight Zone and be about things and metaphysical ideas, not people or Characters like the movies were. Not simply a stringing of exciting events that have no resemblance to the way things really are and how they should be.

Well that's a sure way for this to fail. People go to movies because they care about the PEOPLE. It is at its best when its dealing with Kirk, Spock, and McCoy and their friendship.

And ah Star Trek wasn't ever really Twilight Zone like.

The "Big Ideas" are simply window dressing.

Sharr

Kirk notices gremlins on the hull of the Enterprise. No one else sees them, and -- . Wait. It's been done.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Sharr Khan said:
... People go to movies because they care about the PEOPLE. It is at its best when its dealing with Kirk, Spock, and McCoy and their friendship.

And ah Star Trek wasn't ever really Twilight Zone like.

The "Big Ideas" are simply window dressing.

Sharr

I think it's a bit harsh to say that the "Big Ideas" were simply window dressing. I do agree that Star Trek was first and foremost about the interaction of those three characters, but the classic morality plays that these characters used as a vehicle to carry them through each episode were almost equally important.

I DO think the films featured the characters more than the stories. But for TV, the stories were very important. I can see this next film being more character-driven, since the whole point of Abrams returning to TOS was to bring back those characters.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Jackson_Roykirk said:

Sharr Khan said:
... People go to movies because they care about the PEOPLE. It is at its best when its dealing with Kirk, Spock, and McCoy and their friendship.

And ah Star Trek wasn't ever really Twilight Zone like.

The "Big Ideas" are simply window dressing.

Sharr

I think it's a bit harsh to say that the "Big Ideas" were simply window dressing. I do agree that Star Trek was first and foremost about the interaction of those three characters, but the classic morality plays that these characters used as a vehicle to carry them through each episode were almost equally important.

I DO think the films featured the characters more than the stories. But for TV, the stories were very important. I can see this next film being more character-driven, since the whole point of Abrams returning to TOS was to bring back those characters.

I think I might have overstated but usually the "big ideas" were a means to an end and not the end itself.

Spock and his Pon Farr, Khan being the result of genetic manipulation (which wasn't the focus of Space Seed, unlike in later day Trek... to its fault) none the story was so much these ideas was how Kirk and his friends dealt with them and what they learned about themselves by the end of the story.

I cringe when I hear people say Star Trek is about "things" and not people - later day Trek was all about "things" and the technobable that went with it.

Sharr

 

[xortex]

Later day Trek was all about people. That's the problem. I'd rather learn something about myself than something about them. You can't say that the Twilight Zone wasn't about people but it made us understand a bit about ourselves and the nature of the universe and how it affects us all. I.e. it must be metaphorical and introspective (insightful) and meaningful to you and me, and not just to them.