What Has Discovery Added To Star Trek Lore?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Kane_Steel, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. Stevil2001

    Stevil2001 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, sure, you can imagine these kind of things. I think his bigger point is the old shows never did; they took care to always establish how every person got on and off (usually with that stock shot of the Enterprise-D and the Hood from "Encounter at Farpoint").
     
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  2. Hythlodeus

    Hythlodeus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And that's totally fine if one wants to waste time on that because one has 45 minutes to fill but just 20 minutes of actual story. Luckily DSC episodes are higher paced with tighter scripts
     
  3. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The explicit point in all those was that there was a starship at one end. In "Metamorphosis", Kirk was warping out to meet Scotty in order to reach his ultimate destination. In "Galileo Seven", a rare starship sortie brought the four Murasaki systems to within shuttlecraft range. And in "The Menagerie", the attempt at going interstellar nearly killed Kirk.

    But it's not the existence of interstellar shuttle flight that I'm disappointed with here. It's the implied ubiquitousness, and the utterly exceptional way it is used, making a starship reachable at any and all situations and locations. What's the point of having a ship in the first place when people get to places without her?

    And why were those long? Because they were sublight flights, with "impulse stars" outside, and with explicit insystem destinations. They don't relate to the issue at hand.

    Which is the problem I see, rather than a solution. No other show had such picking up take place. I do dare you to come up with even one example comparable to Sarek's odd jumping-the-ships.

    This is not tighter writing. It's looser writing, similar to the "floating date" trope where people agree to meet "In France next week". The comings and goings are left without a story justification when there is no excuse for the mechanism of them happening. If Sarek can come and go, why do the heroes ever suffer from lack of access to a character? A decade later Sarek needs Vulcan blood to survive. Why doesn't it arrive fresh from Vulcan? Or Kirk needs somebody to stop his ship from careening madly across the universe. Why doesn't Starfleet send this somebody? When the time comes to pay Vulcan a visit, what does Spock need with a starship?

    All the previous sets of writers treated starships as the vehicles that took the heroes places. Shuttles did not reach them en route; it took a bump in the road to achieve that. Even fellow starships didn't deliver visitors while the heroes traveled at warp from A to B. Arranging for a rendezvous was a big, big scheduling thing.

    It's a characteristic DSC has added to the Trek universe. But it's a problematic one because it doesn't easily fit the 23rd century context, or the 22nd or 24th century ones, which were still written with the mentality that a starship in flight was like an airliner in flight, not a parade float to hop on or off.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  4. DaveyNY

    DaveyNY Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sorry, Timo, but you're just nit-picking way beyond the usual kinda Nits.

    I get that it bothers you, but I'd rather spend time trying to 'Explain' why something seems off, than constantly pointing out that it is.

    For me, it's a lot more fun building something up with semi-logical explanations, than tearing it apart with negative conclusions.

    :shrug:
     
  5. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Welcome to 21st century Star Trek.
     
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  6. matthunter

    matthunter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The shuttle journeys in TNG are explicitly at warp, or they make NO sense. Geordi is on his way back from a conference on a Federation world. He's ambushed by a Romulan Warbird. If he's at impulse, they just decloaked within a Federation system... the distance to the edge of OURS is 1.87 light years (to the Oort Cloud). Heck, even Pluto takes 4.5 hours at Warp 1, and Geordi is bored enough he's already hitting the computer up for samba rhythms. But the option of hailing any local vessels for assistance doesn't come up, nor does anyone notice the Warbird. Expressly, this is meant to take place in interstellar space.

    Now the DSC shuttles suddenly seeming to have Warp 5 capability is a bit of a stretch - the whole point of the Runabouts in DS9 was to be faster than standard shuttles.
     
  7. Takeru

    Takeru Space Police Premium Member

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    To carry lots of specialized equipment and crew, to provide an environment for people to comfortably live and work in, to fight battles if necessary etc.
     
  8. DaveyNY

    DaveyNY Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Aeh, it's just a carry over from the 20th Century.
    Folks have been doing this to some degree or another since the advent of the Trek movies.
    Back then we did it in person, face-to-face at conventions (and even then, it was not always cordial), now it's just completely off-the-wall at times cause it's so impersonal.
    :shrug:
     
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  9. PicardSpeedo

    PicardSpeedo Commander Red Shirt

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    For me the most important things it adds are that:

    - Philippa Georgiou and Michael Burnham are the most legendary Starfleet officers who ever served
    - It's okay to be grossly insubordinate and disrespectful to your Captain, as long as it doesn't cross over into mutiny
    - Section 31 isn't secret; everyone in the future just has terrible memory
     
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  10. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Also known as the Kirk maneuver.
     
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  11. Happy X-Mas (War Is Over)

    Happy X-Mas (War Is Over) If You Want It Premium Member

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    Must also be why they forgot about smooth head Klingons and androids.
     
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Stupid Wiki edits.
     
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  13. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, it's something of a Mirror Universe moment for me, too - I usually go for the bullshit rationalizations rather than the embarrassing author errors as well. It's just that

    a) there's nothing to rationalize here until somebody bitches about it, so I sort of feel duty-bound, and
    b) this thread is about novel phenomena, and here we have one...

    But he explicitly is (the stars are still, and there's no dropping-out-of-warp dialogue or alert or shake or whatnot). And they did. This is not contested.

    Furthermore, he's traveling in the one TNG spacecraft that has been labeled as warp-incapable onscreen, the tiny Type 15 shuttlepod...

    Nope, insystem, for the reasons you state: it's a short hop of a few hours at sublight.

    If Klingons can deliver Picard and Data to the Romulan homeworld under cloak, surely the Romulans can return the courtesy here?

    ...And even their performance was limited to below warp five, as per "Dax".

    But the DSC shuttles need not necessarily be starship-fast. It's just that this random movement of characters would then mean the starship herself is making odd detours. Or, alternately, that other starships are bending over backwards to accommodate the transfers. Which may well explain some of Sarek's movements, since he's a VIP warranting the treatment (especially during his odder jumps such as in "War Without"), although not all of them (if he really jumps ship in "Brother", we have to choose between the Scylla of him bailing out at high warp and the Charybdis of him bailing out in a hail of sharp rocks).

    Personally, I'd prefer believing in ship rendezvouses, even though DSC visuals are woefully lacking there. When Cornwell arrives in her "cruiser" for "Lethe", no, this is not a fancy name for her shuttle - she just happens to be old school and shuttles over, instead of transporting over. When Number One beams over in "Obol", the ship is right next to Spacedock, allowing Nhan and Reno to also beam over at their leisure before the ship again gets underway. But DSC VFX is cheap (read: expensive and often late), so we fail to see key visuals. Which is nothing new, as TNG also was pure tell-not-show more often than not. Here we just have to do the telling, too...

    As for Section 31, there's plenty of time for the organization to fake its death before DS9 rolls along...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Commodore Commodore

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    I can’t say I ever gave much thought to any of that beyond “Sarek got off at some point”.
     
  15. Serveaux

    Serveaux Tasteless and unnecessary Premium Member

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    You know, one of the ways in which the Trek format struggles with being dated is that we're about two generations past the era where most of the potential audience either has experience with or relates sympathetically to military discipline and organization.

    The important turning point for just about every protagonist who is part of an organization in a blockbuster movie is that moment when he or she rebels and defies orders to Do What's Right, Dammit!
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
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  16. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Fleet Captain

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    TV and movies are very different animals, however. Which is why even seeming dated the Trek format still works fine, as also seen in the 5 year run of The Last Ship and to a lesser extent in the copious number of police procedurals on the air.
     
  17. The Santalorian

    The Santalorian THIS IS THE SLEIGH Moderator

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    - Georgiou is well known and renowned in her time (even before her brave death) and may carry over into the future, as are Kirk, Spock, Picard, Archer, Sisko, Janeway, Sulu, Riker, etc. It's not unusual for Trek leads or even peripheral characters. Hell, Janeway was very familiar with Captain Ransom's record as a minor living legend, and he was just on a dinky planetary survey ship. Starfleet is a mutual admiration society that promotes the achievements of its senior officers to inspire junior officers and cadets.

    - Riker to Jellico, Chuckles to Janeway, Spock or Data on numerous occasions. Also, how was it okay when she was relieved of duty and sent to prison and disgraced and distrusted, all of which she had to work her way back out of?

    - How many secret intelligence organizations from 120-220 years ago do you think the average person in Starfleet who is not a military or intelligence historian is familiar with, especially if they have actively expunged their records at some point? Granted, it stretches credibility a bit that Julian is not aware of them since he's a spy geek and has a genetically engineered super intellect, but still.
     
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  18. PicardSpeedo

    PicardSpeedo Commander Red Shirt

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    Kirk only did it when he had good reason to, or when the other person was being a dick. Compare that to how Michael Burnham (and now, more recently, Saru) interact with their superior officers in nearly EVERY EPISODE.
     
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  19. Serveaux

    Serveaux Tasteless and unnecessary Premium Member

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    What Kirk got away with seemed very implausible, in the days that the show first aired, to anyone who took the military aspects of the show seriously. There was always an awful lot of hand-waving going on.

    Spock fucking stole a spaceship and committed a capital offense, one week. Starfleet was cool with it. Wasn't even a board of inquiry.

    One can argue, I suppose, that the writers are taking the easy way out by using rebellion against authority as a dramatic device too often and too easily on STD - but it's real hard to sell the idea that this isn't in the oldest traditions of Star Trek.
     
  20. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    One of the funniest moments of TNG was Picard chewing out Worf about violating his Star Fleet duty in Reunion. I thought Worf should have responded with 'When did Star Fleet start worrying about that?'
     
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