What Happened to Picard

[F. King Daniel]

He did say "pissed off" but obviously that's not on the same level. I feel like they're just testing the waters. If Picard ever says "fuck", I'm not posting here without a radiation suit. The mock outrage I usually call people out on wouldn't be so mock anymore.

He'll blast Admiral Clancy with the c-word in season 2.

 

[lawman]

This is an interesting and thought-provoking thread, but it mostly provokes thoughts that, at least in the context of the Trek universe, have been dealt with pretty conclusively already.

Mind-body dualism is clearly a thing in the Trekverse. Consciousness can be disembodied, can be stored, can be transferred to a new body or someone else's. We've seen this happen in countless ways in countless episodes, from TOS through TNG and beyond.

And consciousness is the seat of identity. This works for me. Intuitively, I've always felt that I live inside my head; the rest of the body is just a vehicle.

None of this is unique to Trek; it's a pretty common trope in lots of SF. (People have already mentioned Altered Carbon, as one of the more recent and familiar examples.)

Now, reality may be another story. In our universe, a lot of the latest science suggests pretty strongly that consciousness is irreducibly embodied, entangled up with brains and neurons and hormones and so on and so forth in ways that can't really be disentangled. This is (IMHO) disappointing, not to mention unintuitive, but that's reality for you.

In the Trekverse, though, it's a thing. So, long story short, Picard's consciousness transferred to a new body is still Picard. Shouldn't even be open to question.

QUOTE="megariff, post: 13334625, member: 79973"]And, are they going to ask: Is the Picard synth really Picard? Does the Picard synth have a soul? I think that these are good questions.[/QUOTE]
It does still offer interesting territory to explore, yes, at least in the sense of Picard's subjective experience of the transition. I wouldn't be up for anything along the lines of "souls," though. Trek has always been a resolutely naturalistic show; as with much SF, supernatural or spiritual elements really don't have a place in it. Personally I'd like to keep it that way.

Well, that Spock was still the same organic lifeform, it wasn't new, just renewed. To me, it's about whether androids can be as "human" as humans. And, it's about whether transferring his brain patterns into a synth is the same as how he existed in an organic body and brain.

I think the question of whether androids can be truly "human" (or truly sapient, to put it in terms less anthrocentric and more appropriate for Trek) was answered at least as far back as "Measure of a Man," and that answer was driven home with a piledriver in Picard. What's left to question there?

[Spock in STIII] was merely his original body that had been rejuvenated. That's not a clone any more than people revived by borg nanoprobes are.

Really? I never saw it that way at all. It seems counterintuitive to imagine that the same body somehow de-aged, then re-aged. I always interpreted it as a matter of some surviving bit of Spock's genetic material being "cloned" and rapidly aged by the lingering Genesis effect. That's why the new body had no real consciousness of its own.

It also would have been the perfect oppertunity to re-cast with someone younger. But I'm guessing season 2 or 3 will feature flashbacks to a new young Picard on the Stargazer (or Reliant), and open the door to further Picard adventures once Sir Patrick is finished with Trek.

God, I hope not. I'm sure the role is liable to be recast someday, corporate IP being what it is, but audiences should at least have a few years in-between; a transition straight from old to new would be pretty jarring.

Hey guys I'd just like to point out that I read in an article that Picard's new body is organic so it's not an android body in the same way Data's was. He'd be more like a clone.

My take on it as presented on-screen is that the body is organic (albeit with various optional technological "upgrades" that can be built in), but the mind is positronic (in the Soong-ian sense).

My take's always been dead is dead. ... I feel that way about Altered Carbon too, especially when you can save your memory days, weeks, months or years before you die and you can be brought back from those points. Also, because there can be more than one of you.

Interesting. Your sense of identity is associated more with your body than your consciousness? Your "meatware" (to be SF-nal about it) rather than your software? That's hard for me to relate to. Why do you feel that way?

What this does do is open a can of worms, since apparently, they just invented immortality. Why would anyone want to be in a flesh body that decays and dies when they could be in a human one?

My girlfriend and I discussed this exact point after watching. It's not spelled out on-screen, but for the purposes of not radically transforming the Trekverse I can easily imagine that the technology to create a body like the one given to Picard exists only on the synth planet, and that they'd be protective of it, and/or that the whole process for doing so (unlike for the mechanical synths seen on Mars) is slow and laborious. IOW, it's more of a one-at-a-time craft thing rather than anything that can be mass-produced, and Picard was just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

I still don't know exactly what Soji and Picard are. Are they human? Are they androids? Are they clones? It wasn't really explained.

They're both androids, with organic bodies and positronic brains. Her consciousness was created, whereas his was originally organic.

But if synths do not have positronic brains, then why does this matter?

What makes you think they don't? I never noticed the show suggesting that.

I noticed that only the new characters have been swearing. Legacy characters from the old days are keeping it clean.

Interesting! I didn't notice that. FWIW, though, I did think the swearing here fit the show a lot more organically than it did on Discovery.

 

[Random_Spock]

@lawman That's how I felt about the swearing too. It fit the situation.

As for Picard as an android, it'll be interesting to see how that storyline unfolds.

 

[Shenanigans]

And consciousness is the seat of identity. This works for me. Intuitively, I've always felt that I live inside my head; the rest of the body is just a vehicle

I think most agree consciousness is the seat of identity, but that consciousness is produced by the brain, so still tied to a specific body even if just that specific part.

 

[fireproof78]

In the Trekverse, though, it's a thing. So, long story short, Picard's consciousness transferred to a new body is still Picard. Shouldn't even be open to question.

I would say yes and no. It's open to question because it is a rather unusual situation for someone to be moving from one body to another and still retaining that identity. In past Treks, except for the Trill, moving bodies is not an automatic "That's the same person."

I mean, in more episodic Trek, yes that would be it. But, this does allow for more exploration of Picard's sense of self.

I think the question of whether androids can be truly "human" (or truly sapient, to put it in terms less anthrocentric and more appropriate for Trek) was answered at least as far back as "Measure of a Man," and that answer was driven home with a piledriver in Picard. What's left to question there?

I think there is the question of what constitutes an android, vs. a synth. Because, even holograms were not regarded as truly sapient, even with the Doctor, as evidenced by "Author, Author." (I think that's the episode).

So, I'm not sure the question was fully answered, or maybe there are still technicalities to be ironed out by the Federation lawyers.