What does marriage mean to you?

[Marie1]

I think it's a wonderful union of two souls that are totally and completely committed to one another.

That's my feeling too. For me it has a voluntary legal and a religious significance too.

I'm pretty cheap tho, so I wouldn't spring for an expensive wedding. The being married part itself is pretty important to me though.

My thought on an expensive wedding is I rather put thousands of dollars into a down payment of a house and not on ONE day of a relationship that will go on for many many more years.

Exactly!

I'm not opposed to prenups either- sometimes (and I have experience with this) people who are sociopathic can hide who they are- and if they do, I see no reason why they should get half my stuff.

 

[Kestra]

I'm not offended by the question. If anything, I'm taken aback by the fact that you thought you would offend me and wanted to ask anyway. And don't give me the "most married people would" line. I'm not "most married people" and you know very little about me.

You have found things I've had to say about marriage offensive before.

I have no problem with you, but I'm not going to keep things I think need to be said to myself just to maintain that.

I've found plenty of things you've said to be offensive, but that doesn't make it right to presume you know my opinion on every subject. And what was so important and needed to be said that it was worth offending me, if you were so sure of it? You didn't even comment on the rest of my post which was a response to your actual question.

 

[Hermiod]

^Quite some time ago I made a joke about men ending up paying for sex one way or another. You took offence and said you hoped your husband didn't feel that way. In addition, I've found that married people do tend to get a bit defensive on this subject.

I make no comment on the state of your marriage. As you say, I don't know you or your husband. I'm sorry if you think I was making presumptions.

I didn't comment on the rest of your reply because you'd answered my question and I had nothing else to say.

 

[Kestra]

^Quite some time ago I made a joke about men ending up paying for sex one way or another. You took offence and said you hoped your husband didn't feel that way. In addition, I've found that married people do tend to get a bit defensive on this subject.

I make no comment on the state of your marriage. As you say, I don't know you or your husband. I'm sorry if you think I was making presumptions.

I didn't comment on the rest of your reply because you'd answered my question and I had nothing else to say.

I know you're not commenting on the state of my marriage. That's not what this is about. I'm upset with your question because a) you assume most married people do get offended, b) that I am like said married people, and c) that you would deliberately ask me something that you thought would offend me, something which ultimately had little importance. It's rude and unnecessary.

Sorry if this is coming off as defensive, but it's really not the whole marriage topic that's bothering me here. It's that I don't like when people assume they know my thoughts on a particular subject, and also that while you say you have no problem with me, you also apparently have no issue offending me over a simple question. It definitely changes my view of you.

 

[Hermiod]

^As I've said, you've taken offence at things I've said about marriage in the past. I only cited one example.

I'm sorry you think less of me now, but I'm not going to tip-toe around issues just because somebody might be offended.

 

[Kestra]

So the fact that I don't take offense at being asked about a pre-nup ... how does that factor in?

Edit: Ignore the question. Having a discussion with you is near impossible.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

You know what marriage means to me?

It means that I could show the world in an instance how I feel about the one person in the world I would do anything for in a way that others would know exactly how much we are committed to each other.

It would mean that I could put into tradition and know that my (possible) future children would know that it is okay to love the person you do.

Marriage, not the ceremony or act of getting married, but the actual marriage means that I have found that one person that I could never be without and, even if we're separated for a short time, the world would know and recognize that, in our hearts, we're always together.

I wish I could have that.

 

[Hermiod]

So the fact that I don't take offense at being asked about a pre-nup ... how does that factor in?

Edit: Ignore the question. Having a discussion with you is near impossible.

I'm not going to ignore that. I'm glad you didn't take offence, for what it's worth.

You are demonstrating the attitude that caused my initial comment and reinforcing my opinion of married people.

 

[Kestra]

I wish I could have that.

I wish you could have that too. I also wish we didn't need that though, as a society. Plus with the rates of divorce and other issues, many people probably don't recognize marriage as a symbol of the things you posted.

So the fact that I don't take offense at being asked about a pre-nup ... how does that factor in?

Edit: Ignore the question. Having a discussion with you is near impossible.

I'm not going to ignore that. I'm glad you didn't take offence, for what it's worth.

You are demonstrating the attitude that caused my initial comment and reinforcing my opinion of married people.

It's not about being married! Good lord.

 

[Hermiod]

So the fact that I don't take offense at being asked about a pre-nup ... how does that factor in?

Edit: Ignore the question. Having a discussion with you is near impossible.

I'm not going to ignore that. I'm glad you didn't take offence, for what it's worth.

You are demonstrating the attitude that caused my initial comment and reinforcing my opinion of married people.

It's not about being married! Good lord.

No, it's about your attitude when I say things you disagree with. This is like the fifth time we've had this conversation!

 

[Kestra]

So why are you generalizing that to "married people" and not just leaving it about me as an individual, and how I react to disagreements?

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I wish I could have that.

I wish you could have that too. I also wish we didn't need that though, as a society. Plus with the rates of divorce and other issues, many people probably don't recognize marriage as a symbol of the things you posted.

In a lot of ways, I think you're right. But, in the back of many people's minds, I can't help but think that ideal is still there, you know?

I've been with the same woman for almost 6 years now, and I still have moments where I think, "I'd love to be her wife."

We're as committed as anyone could be, but I still have that thought, and it's exactly what I said.

I like the concept of belonging to someone and knowing that others know that.

I don't mean in sense of slavery, but in the sense of being with that person.

 

[Hermiod]

^It's because your reaction is common. You can't speak negatively about marriage without somebody thinking you've somehow violated their vows.

You didn't react that way, and I'm sorry for thinking you would.

 

[Kestra]

I wish I could have that.

I wish you could have that too. I also wish we didn't need that though, as a society. Plus with the rates of divorce and other issues, many people probably don't recognize marriage as a symbol of the things you posted.

In a lot of ways, I think you're right. But, in the back of many people's minds, I can't help but think that ideal is still there, you know?

I've been with the same woman for almost 6 years now, and I still have moments where I think, "I'd love to be her wife."

We're as committed as anyone could be, but I still have that thought, and it's exactly what I said.

I like the concept of belonging to someone and knowing that others know that.

I don't mean in sense of slavery, but in the sense of being with that person.

Oh, that ideal is definitely there. It's just not standard, and individual people can even be of two minds on whether marriage symbolizes that or not. I think I dislike the notion that we need other people to legitimize the relationships we're in to any extent. Is it just human nature to want other people to recognize our commitment, or is it just a shortcut to explaining how strongly you feel about your partner (as you explained in your initial post)?

^It's because your reaction is common. You can't speak negatively about marriage without somebody thinking you've somehow violated their vows.

You didn't react that way, and I'm sorry for thinking you would.

Fair enough. I can get defensive about marriage (and pretty much everything else) but I want you to understand that that wasn't the case here. My reaction was about something else.

FWIW, I didn't really even want to get married. It was the result of my husband wanting it, family pressure, societal pressure, and eventually seeing some of the benefits of such a union. That's why my husband and I were together seven years before I wanted to get married. As a result I have some conflicted views on marriage.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I wish you could have that too. I also wish we didn't need that though, as a society. Plus with the rates of divorce and other issues, many people probably don't recognize marriage as a symbol of the things you posted.

In a lot of ways, I think you're right. But, in the back of many people's minds, I can't help but think that ideal is still there, you know?

I've been with the same woman for almost 6 years now, and I still have moments where I think, "I'd love to be her wife."

We're as committed as anyone could be, but I still have that thought, and it's exactly what I said.

I like the concept of belonging to someone and knowing that others know that.

I don't mean in sense of slavery, but in the sense of being with that person.

Oh, that ideal is definitely there. It's just not standard, and individual people can even be of two minds on whether marriage symbolizes that or not. I think I dislike the notion that we need other people to legitimize the relationships we're in to any extent. Is it just human nature to want other people to recognize our commitment, or is it just a shortcut to explaining how strongly you feel about your partner (as you explained in your initial post)?

I definitely see it as a shortcut. If I cared if society on the whole recognizing the legitimacy of my relationship gave it validity or not, I wouldn't bother to be in a relationship as the likelihood of that type of recognition is slim to none.

 

[Deckerd]

It's impossible to make generalisations about marriage. Each one is different.

 

[Kestra]

It's impossible to make generalisations about marriage. Each one is different.

Pfft. Misc wouldn't exist if we couldn't generalize!

 

[Deckerd]

But then again, it's such a personal thing that no two people are ever going to agree about it. The dynamic of the whole conversation would have been different if the question were only posed for married people.

 

[Hermiod]

Fair enough. I can get defensive about marriage (and pretty much everything else) but I want you to understand that that wasn't the case here. My reaction was about something else.

I get that.

FWIW, I didn't really even want to get married. It was the result of my husband wanting it, family pressure, societal pressure, and eventually seeing some of the benefits of such a union. That's why my husband and I were together seven years before I wanted to get married. As a result I have some conflicted views on marriage.

As others have tried to establish, there's Marriage and then there's Marriage. It's hard for people to separate the legal framework, the sharing of assets and so on and so on from the part where two people love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together.

It's not the second part I have any problem with at all. My problem is very much with the first.

First, the ability to have such a legal relationship is denied to a great number of people who love each other just as much as any heterosexual couple.

Second, such an arrangement gives them financial benefits they haven't earned. It's unacceptable to me that having a piece of paper gives you tax benefits.

Third, and this is where a lot of people get offended, I believe that it is extremely disadvantageous for a man to get married in the legal sense. Like it or not, a great many marriages end in divorce. Such divorces are typically initiated unilaterally by the woman, taking advantage of the so-called 'no fault' system of divorce which allows the splitting of assets with no need to prove any wrongdoing.

The divorce system in no way favours men, so custody of the children and ownership of the family home is typically retained by the woman.

I believe that men would be better off cohabitating in an 'unofficial' marriage but even then, as others have said, a man can't even do that because eventually the law will say he's married anyway.

I just can't accept a system that allows a man to lose his home and his children without anyone having to demonstrate that he actually did anything wrong.

 

[Deckerd]

It works both ways. One of my sister's friends was married to a man whose family were wealthy. When he ran off with another woman, the family made sure she got squat. Her parents had to find somewhere for her to live. He buys the kids presents but keeps them at the other house because the other woman's kids have a better games setup, so the only time they get to play them is when they're visiting him. This is also happening to another friend of mine as we speak, who has lost her home because her husband's parents lent it to him.