What did you think of Kirk kicking Kruge to his death?

[DonIago]

The thing is, if Starfleet was able to catch up to Khan with more than one training vessel, then he shouldn't really have stood a chance, given how Kirk ultimately was able to defeat him even with just a training vessel. If there's a point of frustration I have with the TOS movies in general, it's that except for TMP and TUC (the first and last, amusingly enough) Our Heroes are handicapped and we don't get to see them at their full potential.

TMP: New Ship
TWOK: Training Vessel
TSFS: Seriously undermanned.
TVH: BoP
TFF: Malfunctioning Ship and undermanned.
TUC: Everything up and running, finally!

 

[Timo]

Cumberbatch was the perfect choice for the nuKhan, in that it makes us think of Khan as Sherlock Holmes: an absolute genius (and madman) in his own time, well versed in what makes the underworld of London tick, but so certain of his superiority that he absolutely refuses to learn anything new. Place him in London a century later, or send him to Paris, and he'll be unable to tell a hacker from a cracker or a baton from a baguette - a mere madman without any of the genius.

That's Khan in the 2260s. It's just that in ST:ID, we see him only after he has gotten a bit of a head start in acclimatizing.

The TOS man Kirk could pity (and admire for his now-lost genius). The ST:ID man, not so much. And the TWoK man has only ever acclimatized to his own little sandy hog heaven, meaning he's mad to the third power now, and deserves nothing more than a kick in the face or three. (And it's sheer backstage serendipity that he never meets Kirk face to kickable face!)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jackoverfull]

When did Khan ever display military genius?

supposedly in the 20th century.

 

[Timo]

Defeating 430 people and taking over a foreign military vessel also counts as the type of "military genius" Steven Seagal's characters display. This grassroots variant would serve Khan just as well as the bunkers-and-chart-tables one, and indeed he seems to prefer a hands-on approach in all his post-20th-century antics.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jackoverfull]

Good point.

Twice, by the way…the Enterprise in Space Seed and the Reliant in TWoK

 

[Timo]

Defeating Admiral Marcus' mercenaries and taking over the Vengeance adds to that count. Khan really knows a fighting trick or two, and (unlike classic Holmes) is a quick learner in addition.

I guess the whole of ST:ID also showcases that most important of military skills, the abiilty to anticipate enemy moves. Even if it leads to truly byzantine plans when you are fighting the whole war with an army of one (super)man.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Well, Vengeance was also undermanned and had significant automation, so we don't really know how many people Khan defeated there, and he was helped by Kirk and Scotty.

Khan's contributions to the ship were likely made with the intention of making it easier for him to take it over at some point in the future, given the ease with which he did so.

 

[XCV330]

He was genetically designed to be a genius, or so we're told.

Kirk and Spock had him figured out pretty quickly. Khan might have been a genius but that doesn't mean his talents were exhibited everywhere. He certainly seems good at inventing things and figuring out other people's inventions. Seems good at survival too. And if you need someone to lift people by their convenient spacesuit handle, or giant chunks of debris, Khan is your guy.

But he was not able to adapt to combat in three dimensions, kind of necessary if one is going to conduct warfare in space. He didn't even change his ship's remote console admin password. And however big a deal he'd been in his timeline's 1990's, he lost. The world moved on and went back to killing each other with gusto instead of augments a few decades later.

And most importantly, whenever he had his hands on a major piece of tech that could help realize his plans, say a nice fresh ship of the line with the ultimate weapon, or a portable long-range transporter, he got stuck in loyalty and revenge issues. Like a poor marksman, he kept missing the target.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In Search For Spock what did you think when Captain Kirk kicked Kruge in the face and he fell to his death? Did you agree with it?

Fucking right I agreed with it.

One of the ultimate HELL YEAH! moments in Trek.

 

[jackoverfull]

And most importantly, whenever he had his hands on a major piece of tech that could help realize his plans, say a nice fresh ship of the line with the ultimate weapon, or a portable long-range transporter, he got stuck in loyalty and revenge issues. Like a poor marksman, he kept missing the target.

well, this is coherent with how the augments are presented in TOS and later shown on Enterprise: they may have superior intellect, but this is constantly limited by their inflated ego.

 

[Maurice]

I don’t know why people keep acting like the Enterprise was a “training vessel”. At the end of the Kobyashi Maru it’s pretty clear they are training a new crew for the ship. McCoy said so. The ship was on a training cruise, that doesn’t make it a dedicated training vessel.

 

[Maurice]

supposedly in the 20th century.

What dialogue supports that?

 

[Timo]

Supposedly his success in conquering all, and fighting those nice and clean and defensive wars to hold on to what he got?

Conquering all would probably be due to his genius in politics or assassination, though, as the other option, offensive warfare, seems precluded by the "no wars until he was attacked" claim... His skill in fighting the defensive wars (or wars where he lured his victims to attack first, at any rate) would supposedly be renown, though, or else he wouldn't be the last of the tyrants to be overthrown, but more like one of the first.

Was the Enterprise a training ship or not? I think she was: McCoy was lamenting that Starfleet was not putting an experienced crew back aboard, which is not at all the same as establishing that Starfleet would have been putting a whole new inexperienced crew aboard. Piecemeal training of the likes of Saavik sounds like a better motivation for McCoy's grumbling, which seems to be deriving not from his personal desire to return to the ship (he supposedly still hates space and all) but his issue with the ship no longer having an honorable career or something.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[shapeshifter]

When did Khan ever display military genius?

He was genetically designed to be a genius, or so we're told.

And we're all laughing at his superior intellect.

 

[Timo]

..And rightly so, because it was his Achilles heel. Not the lack of it, but the presence of it.

Had Khan merely thought of himself as a particularly brawny superhero, he would never have fallen for the tricks that brought him down!

Then again, without his genius, he would never have gotten past the first hurdle of butting heads with our heroes, who always held the superior rayguns and had the superior intel (as in knowledge) and the advantage of numbers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

What we know of Khan's actions in the 20th century, from Space Seed, is that "In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations." And also, Khan was, "From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of" the Earth. The details of how all this happeed are left vague. We don't actually know if it involved military action, political maneuvering, a combination of both, or what. So it isn't really clear that Khan is meant to be some kind of military genius.

Kor

 

[jackoverfull]

I don’t know why people keep acting like the Enterprise was a “training vessel”. At the end of the Kobyashi Maru it’s pretty clear they are training a new crew for the ship. McCoy said so. The ship was on a training cruise, that doesn’t make it a dedicated training vessel.

Timo makes some good points above. Also, the fact that Starfleet doesn’t deem the Enterprise worthy of being repaired after the battle hints that she’s no longer considered a very valuable ship.

So it isn't really clear that Khan is meant to be some kind of military genius.

doesn’t Spock says something about his tactics being brilliant in TWoK?

 

[oldtrekkie]

I don't think it's accurate to say that Kirk kicked Kruge to his death. Kirk kicked Kruge to make him release his foot, the fact that Kruge then fell and hit lava is an unfortunate consequence.

 

[Maurice]

Timo makes some good points above. Also, the fact that Starfleet doesn’t deem the Enterprise worthy of being repaired after the battle hints that she’s no longer considered a very valuable ship.

doesn’t Spock says something about his tactics being brilliant in TWoK?

They decided that in ST3. That wasn't the intent in ST2.

 

[publiusr]

To look at it as a whole…instead of individual movies…like religious books …Ent-A was probably going to be a bribe to get Kirk out of the way perhaps…not much time elapsed between II and IV. Kirk handed them a nice little BoP.

To me…the most pivotal TOS movie is TUC…because it makes me rethink everything in a new light. Was Kruge in on it…or did he not trust Chang. How did his spy get the Genesis recording and why was Kirk on the tape now and not Marcus…unless he thought Marcus group was by itself and this was part of a Starfleet report. Kirk was thought of like Dirty Harry by David Soul’s character in MAGNUM FORCE. After his son was killed…the cabal no longer had him in their sights. Was this Carol MARCUS more her father’s daughter than JJ’s Rose Tyler? So many ways this could break.

Kruge wanted to pull Kirk and himself into the lava, rather than go home empty handed.

It was quite the fall. If the two had done the Reichenbach infernal’ I wonder if they would have spoken..or nodded in understanding…