What Could Have Changed to Have Brought Back Enterprise?

[Nyotarules]

According to "Memory Alpha" V'Las was the child of Romulan sleepers - and therefore not Vulcan. We're to assume that Vulcans have in some way genetically adapted to logical life due to the existence of pon farr which I would suggest is something Romulans don't experience despite being a subspecies/same-species as Vulcans. They should have had someone on Enterprise point out to T'pol that arrogance, disgust, contempt, spite, and egotism are all emotional if they were really aiming for this "Vulcans are not especially adapted to stoicism" line. It just makes the humans look dumber than humans are.

Reading Memory Alpha/Beta and even the novels. There is nothing genetic about logic, its a philosophy they incorporate into their behaviour, e.g they have to meditate to control their emotions. Hence the V'Tosh Katur Vulcans are looked down for not following the 'established religion'. Its the sc-fi version of Catholic Europe in the Middle Ages before the Reformation. Back then anyone not toeing the line in society was punished. I am surprised no one pointed out to the Vulcans that their strict adherence to Surakian beliefs was a religion. In my head canon, Vulcans are natural extremists, they cannot behave moderately, strip away the logic and they are nothing more than intelligent savages.

 

[Nyotarules]

Whoops - I can't edit my comments yet. V'Las was not the son of Romulans - I accidentally read that on the Memory Beta google summary. The whole thing was messy because they had all these Vulcans running around caliming to be logical and stoic and nobody seems to catch on that they're absolutely not.

They were logical and stoic according to them, because the version of Surak's teaching they followed was not the original. I think the Kirshara incident showed the Vulcans they had fallen far from the original ideal (just like Christiandom cough cough). Look how young T'Pau behaved to get Surak's katra in her head. Her interpretation of logic is ruthless - a human is worth sacrificing for the good of the planet whether he volunteers or not! No wonder T'Mir and T'Pol were appalled at her actions. Even Surak's dead spirit realised a human was better than his own followers!
I think as well humans were intimidated by Vulcans, despite moaning that they were held back by them. (Its a shame we never saw an episode about why that happened) there was still an element of Big Brother/Little Brother going on, until the Enterprise was launched.

 

[Nyotarules]

The writers seemed to not understand logic. You can easily create strife between vulcans and between vulcans and non-vulcans as logic depends on accepted premises. Some vulcans might think democracy is a more logical form of government, others might believe autocracy has its merits. Some vulcans might think strong military responses are logical or even that it's reasonable for vulcans to eliminate emotional races for interests that benefit them - other vulcans might believe that expansionism causes backlash and it's irrational to do so. There was no reason to resort to emotions to make antagonistic vulcans in Enterprise and this probably annoys me the most about them. T'Pol is far far less stoic than Spock who is half human which is supposed to be a big thing as to why he may be more emotional than most vulcans and, yet, we still have Spock being more cool-headed than nearly every Vulcan in Enterprise. The whole thing was just annoying.

This is true, logic is neither moral or immoral. But we can blame those emotional Vulcans in ENT on Romulan infiltration of Vulcan society. ;o) Even though by TOS Vulcans are considered the moral center of the Federation, because of their logical atittude to problems. However not speaking to your son for 18 years seems petty to me and not logical - yeah Sarek I'm talking about you! lol

[/QUOTE] I've decided T'Pol was a genetic mutant and the Vulcans assigned her to an Earth ship assuming the humans would probably do something stupid and T'Pol would be blown up. :-)[/QUOTE]

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

AdmiralShran and Nyotarules, welcome to the forum.

I notice that you are posting several times in a row. Making more than 2 consecutive posts is considered spamming here. The Multiquote function is your friend-- please give it a go from now on.

 

[Nyotarules]

Thanks for the welcome, sorry was not aware of that rule will use the multiquote from now on.
Cheers

 

[eyeresist]

The storytelling is well-debated, but I actually think the problem was more the style. The format/look/acting style of ST basically hadn't really changed since TNG. Enterprise needed to be more modern, fresher. The stilted theatre-esque staging, acting and look needed to be more radically different to TNG, DS9 and VOY to modernise it for a new, younger audience.

I'd say ENT was more naturalistic than previous series, and that's part of the reason TNG fans rejected it. The big problems (apart from franchise fatigue) were (a) writing issues, e.g. the notorious ending of Dear Doctor, and (b) pacing issues. I think they were trying for a slow burn effect like West Wing or X Files, but the result was sometimes painful.

Nothing could save it. Enterprise is a dud. It's the redheaded stepchild of the Star Trek franchise.

There's a Futurama quote about TOS: "79 episodes, about 30 good ones," which I've seen TOS fans agree with. ENT's hit rate was about the same.

 

[T'Arwen]

Really? I hated him except in Cogenitor when we discovered Archer was a seriously deluded person.

Were you the one who voted Trip as most overrated character? FYI, killing him off was the sticking point of TATV for most people. If they picked someone else to die, the backlash would not have been nearly as bad.

I think Enterprise reminded fans that Vulcans are not born logical its something they learn, and since there are billions of them some of them are bound to fail their own standards (in RL just consider how many religious don't practise what they preach or struggle to).

I don't quite see it that way, just as part of the species' evolution. Considering how different race relations were in America (and the worldview of other issues) just 50 years ago, of course Vulcan were going to not going to be the same when this was more than 100 years before TOS. If the story of America was a multi-era fiction, I can easily imagine people complaining of "continuity" issues just because of this.

 

[Nyotarules]

I don't quite see it that way, just as part of the species' evolution. Considering how different race relations were in America (and the worldview of other issues) just 50 years ago, of course Vulcan were going to not going to be the same when this was more than 100 years before TOS. If the story of America was a multi-era fiction, I can easily imagine people complaining of "continuity" issues just because of this.

However no one takes legal and cultural improvements in race relations in the USA as a sign that Americans are born free from racist tendenceies. The same is true of the Vulcans, they are not born logical, they are taught it. A Vulcan born on a desert island all alone, or outside of his culture and I doubt the principles of Surak will naturally enter his/her head. They are a natural violent species so they use logic to deal with it.

 

[Scotchy]

They made some very good changes to the show towards the end, they just made them too late. They weren't granted that 1st and 2nd season honeymoon that TNG got, it seemed like people wanted Enterprise to be spectacular from episode one. They had great adjustments to the characters and story line, they just lost too many viewers too quickly.

 

[suarezguy]

They made some very good changes to the show towards the end, they just made them too late. They weren't granted that 1st and 2nd season honeymoon that TNG got, it seemed like people wanted Enterprise to be spectacular from episode one.

I think most viewers have pretty high expectations for most series, hence a lot of shows get one season if that before getting cancelled.

 

[MacLeod]

They made some very good changes to the show towards the end, they just made them too late. They weren't granted that 1st and 2nd season honeymoon that TNG got, it seemed like people wanted Enterprise to be spectacular from episode one. They had great adjustments to the characters and story line, they just lost too many viewers too quickly.

I think the issue was not so much the lack of a grace period that TNG and perhaps even DSN got, but more the lack that it failed to live up to audiance expectations in terms of story. Most fans were rightly or wrongly expecting a Birth of the Federation story which they finally got in S4 which some would say is the best. Had they set the show in the 2230's for example the expectation of a Birth of The Federation would perhaps not have been there.

 

[VulcanMindBlown]

No, it never would be cool because it removes agency from the characters in the present and doesn't allow them to have their own motivations and political and ideological interests. One of the things that made Enterprise so bad was that everyone, including Archer, kept listening to spooky holograms from the future. There's no excuse for such lazy writing.



I like Berman, he kept many great Star Trek series afloat, but he's listed on the writing credits of nearly every episode of Season 3... He just doesn't have it in him to make it at colorful as it needed to be. Almost all the crew of the Enterprise NX-01 were slightly less animated than Harry Kim.

No, it's completely ridiculous. There's no way to make that work. You have to let a show's characters drive its action and having people from the future showing up to boss everyone around is just annoying. Janeway had it right when the Temporal Agent showed up and she ordered Tuvok to shoot him.

Manny Coto said that he might have brought the Temporal Cold War back, but in less "pieces" so to speak. I can see both ways, it coming out as good or bad, but we should still keep the TOS themes from Season 4.

Also, another thought: Could Season 5 have been as well received by the fans if Manny Coto put in more exploring and social commentary?

 

[T'Arwen]

To get back to the original topic, ENT was in a donut hole time period. When TNG was on, there wasn't any other competition for sci-fi. Syndication still existed but was slowly falling out of favor (you don't see any primetime weekend shows anymore). But 2001 was still way before Netflix and no one thought of putting niche shows on cable yet. Here's an interesting article about Trek and the changing TV landscape. The most important point is this.

So I hope the success of Abrams’ movies paves the way for the triumphant televisual return that Trek richly deserves. And I hope that this time they do it right: Put it on cable, where niche entertainment can thrive, and give us sustained plot arcs that stretch across short cable seasons. The highest-rated Mad Men episode ever, the Season 5 premiere, drew 3.5 million viewers—a mark that even the failed Enterprise series beat in the majority of its episodes. It’s a scandal that the golden age of niche television is passing us by without any representation from the franchise that practically invented niche television.

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/..._tv_series_which_are_the_best_why.single.html

They made some very good changes to the show towards the end, they just made them too late. They weren't granted that 1st and 2nd season honeymoon that TNG got, it seemed like people wanted Enterprise to be spectacular from episode one. They had great adjustments to the characters and story line, they just lost too many viewers too quickly.

It takes a long time, sometimes years, to build a good reputation but only seconds to ruin it. It gets much harder to fix it. The preconceived notions some fans had about the show didn't help either.

 

[suarezguy]

^But can a Trek show have a low enough budget to succeed with cable-niche levels of viewers?

 

[DarKush]

^
Today I think it can. I mean look at what SyFy Channel is doing, even almost a decade or so with Battlestar Galactica and Stargate. And now they have shows like The Expanse,etc. I think a relatively modest budget show today (which I'm assuming would be the kind of budget for SyFy shows) can pull off good FX. Also I thought the FX for TNT's Fallen Skies also looked good.

 

[eyeresist]

Most fans were rightly or wrongly expecting a Birth of the Federation story which they finally got in S4 which some would say is the best. Had they set the show in the 2230's for example the expectation of a Birth of The Federation would perhaps not have been there.

I wasn't expecting it.
Then again, I wasn't expecting the Spanish inquisition either.

 

[STEPhon IT]

"What Could Have Changed to Have Brought Back Star Trek Enterprise?"

I would've got rid of those ugly jumpsuits. Give the crew outfits which would branch the series closer to Captain April's & Pike's Star Trek universe. I still think the cast looked pretty awesome wearing TOS outfits.
Cut out TNG/Voy stuff, and truly make the series an actual prequel to Star Trek; this means putting temporal time crap to rest, and start writing stories where the crew would be alone in space. Limiting Phlox' infallible super medical knowledge which would make 24th century Medical physicians jealous. The bullshit he conjured up from not being Borgified in "Regeneration" was eye rolling. Keeping it simple and making tasks a lot harder would be my task to making the series credible.

 

[T'Girl]

Most fans were rightly or wrongly expecting a Birth of the Federation story

I for one wasn't (and I don't know anyone who was), my expectation was exploration, and social and moral situations. Certainly didn't expect "the Vulcans held us back for a 100 years," and that Earth would only in the middle 22nd century be sending out it's first real explorer starship.

The "we're so weak compared to everyone else" was a poor decision. The captain's "golly gee we're in space" should never have seen the light of day..

 

[TheSubCommander]

I think with as much crap on TV (then as well as now), UPN didn't have to cancel Enterprise. They should have at least renewed it for a 5th season and gave it a chance to see if things could have turned around. The 3rd and 4th seasons had done a lot to address a lot of the complaints people had. I think Season 5, especially one centered around the Earth-Romulan War would have been very interesting. But it wasn't to be.

My personal opinion is that what Enterprise suffered the most from was the "filler episode syndrome." As for bringing the show back, I have long felt that Enterprise should have been brought back in a miniseries format. They could have done something much like what Fox did with Alien Nation. Each miniseries could have covered a truncated version of the remaining seasons' story arcs. Even to this day, I see no reason why CBS can't agree to a Netflix deal or maybe bring an Enterprise miniseries back CBS all access, if they could get the original actors to come back.

 

[eyeresist]

I would've got rid of those ugly jumpsuits. Give the crew outfits which would branch the series closer to Captain April's & Pike's Star Trek universe. I still think the cast looked pretty awesome wearing TOS outfits.

It was nice to see them in the TOS outfits in the MU episodes, but I think the uniforms and the utilitarian look of the ship is something they got right (I know I'm not the only on to think this). Having the Enterprise crew dressed like the Wiggles would contradict the rough-and-ready frontier feel they were going for.

The "we're so weak compared to everyone else" was a poor decision.

I'd argue they didn't do that aspect enough. An NX-01 as super-powered as a TOS or TNG ship would really render the premise redundant, and make the characters too safe.