Were Tuvok and Neelix aware Janeway killed Tuvix?

[Discofan]

I still think it would have served Janeway right if the effort to restore Tuvok and Neelix ended up killing all three of them.

And I still give the episode major props for having The Doctor refuse to perform the procedure.

If not for the imperative of saving the main characters (except when they are willingly written off like Kes for example) that would probably have been the best ending for that episode. All three of then dead and Janeway having to face her conscience or lack thereof.

 

[Prax]

If any other of the captains had made this decision, no one here would bat an eye.

 

[Discofan]

If any other of the captains had made this decision, no one here would bat an eye.

for a decision like that (that goes beyond a Captain's prerogatives) other captains may have at least consulted the senior staff before doing anything irreversible.

 

[Vger23]

This episode always sparks so much fun controversy and debate. I haven't seen it in well over a decade probably. Is it a classic/favorite in the franchise? I barely remember it.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

This episode always sparks so much fun controversy and debate. I haven't seen it in well over a decade probably. Is it a classic/favorite in the franchise? I barely remember it.

It's regarded as one of the franchise's most infamous, cringeworthy & forgetworthy episodes, right up there with warp 10 salamanders.

 

[Prax]

It's regarded as one of the franchise's most infamous, cringeworthy & forgetworthy episodes, right up there with warp 10 salamanders.

lol. it is not

I looked up Jammer's rating.
Threshold- zero stars, one of like 5 episodes of any series to get such a rating
Tuvix- 3 stars, a good solid episode

This story is done again in Enterprise's Similitude. Archer makes the same decision Janeway makes, but the writers take the easy way out and have "Sim" ultimately decide to sacrifice himself. It is commonly regarded as one of the greatest episodes of Enterprise.

Infamous? sure. Cringeworthy? What is cringe? Forgetworthy? totally dishonest. The mere fact that this episode continues to be debated makes that assessment asinine.

 

[Discofan]

Whoever wrote "warp 10 salamanders" was high on something. The episode is filled with nonsense.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

totally dishonest...asinine.

Sorry to hurt your feelings, but outside of the confines of this lil forum, "Tuvix" is a joke. The cast roll their eyes every time they're asked about it. Just imagine splicing Janeway or Chakotay together or somebody, it's just silly. The fact that we're talking about it doesn't elevate its stature any more than talking about warp 10 salamanders.

 

[Prax]

When Tuvix is brought up, the plausibility of the premise is never the issue, but the seriousness of the decision. Your assessment is a joke

Comparing it to threshold, or calling it forgettable is simply dishonest, no matter what you personally think of the episode. Nobody is starting Threshold threads annually, or getting angry, or making self-righteous condemnations of any decisions in that episode. Threshold isn't ever going to make any "best episodes of voyager" lists. It didnt have a great guest stars, or moral dilemmas. Ridiculous. Absurd

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Your assessment is a joke...simply dishonest...self-righteous condemnations...Ridiculous. Absurd

Whatever you say, boss. Time to calm down, it's just a show.

 

[DonIago]

If any other of the captains had made this decision, no one here would bat an eye.

Incorrect.

 

[Prax]

Incorrect.

It's totally true, or at least, frequently true, especially on this forum. Perhaps it is different on other forums.

 

[Prax]

Whatever you say, boss. Time to calm down, it's just a show.

you have rephrased my comment to say something I did not.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Just because someone can be brought back from death doesn't negate their death. Tuvix being born is kind of like a mom dying during child birth. Just because you could kill the baby and use it's dna to bring the mom back it would be wrong. The moment Tuvik was created he was a new and unique person even if his creation was by accident and through a unusual way. Once someone is born it doesn't matter how it happens when it comes to how this new person is treated. Jason

Tuvix being "born" is nothing like a mom dying during childbirth, whatsoever. This is about as tortured and twisted an analogy as I've ever read. For one thing, the creation of a baby doesn't involve the utter destruction of two unknowing and unwilling participants. Even in your tortured example of the mother dying, that is a risk with every pregnancy, and a risk that is taken knowingly. Tuvix's "life"was STOLEN from Neelix and Tuvok by by the plant. It simply wasn't his to have.

A better analogy is: Imagine your kidneys, heart, arms and legs were stolen and implanted in someone else who didn't know where they came from. You wake up to find yourself being kept alive on machine, but will die soon. The authorities find out exactly what happened. The person didn't want to give them back, because they would die.

If it were me, I'd insist my parts be given back to me, and I hope some Janeway out there would help me get them back.

 

[Discofan]

If it were me I would have fired Ethan Phillips and Tim Russ and continued the show with whoever played Tuvix with the recurrent joke of Tuvok and Neelix soon to be brought back.

Janeway: "So! How far along are you in that recovery process?"

The Doctor: "Pretty close captain, a few more weeks and we're there!"

 

[jmidnight_99]

I'd like to think Tuvok and Neelix retained memory of their time as Tuvix.

I'd like to think one or both of them had conversations with each other and/or Janeway about their experiences as Tuvix and how they felt about said experiences.

Isn't it oh-so-easy to judge the situation if you write off Tuvix as an accident and negate the possiblity that he was anything more than that?

Also, nobody is ever willing to offer a good answer to the question of how long Tuvix would have to exist before he had a right to do so. If Tuvix exists for ten years and then The Doctor finds a way to separate him, is his ten years of existence irrelevant? Is he doomed to live his life under perpetual threat of annihilation?

In case you miss my response,

Imagine your kidneys, heart, arms and legs were stolen and implanted in someone. They were taken from you by accident, it was supposed to be the guy in the next room. You will die unless you get your parts back. The authorities find out exactly what happened. The recipient doesn't want to give them back, because he or she would die. The doctor refuses to take your body parts off of/out of the recipient, even though a horrible accident happened.

If it were me, I'd hope some Janeway out there would help me recover from a situation where my one and only life was stolen from me, by accident, to benefit someone else. I'm not left wing enough to think the recipient has any rights to what's mine.

The moment a way to separate Tuvok and Neelix was found, they were OBLIGATED to do it. If they had not done it, they would consciously chosen to sacrifice the lives of two unwilling participants to give life to someone else. So sad for Tuvix, but his life was not his to keep. Thankfully, Janeway saw this.

This is such a stupid debate. Tuvok had the "right" to live, but not at the expense of two unwilling participants, who also had supreme "rights".

And I guess the answer to your question is: How much time has passed is irrelevant. You wouldn't get to keep someone else's money a bank gave you accidentally, why would you get to keep someone else's life?

 

[jmidnight_99]

If it were me I would have fired Ethan Phillips and Tim Russ and continued the show with whoever played Tuvix with the recurrent joke of Tuvok and Neelix soon to be brought back.

Janeway: "So! How far along are you in that recovery process?"

The Doctor: "Pretty close captain, a few more weeks and we're there!"

Could you imagine the backlash? All the people saying Tuvix should have lived would be whining about them firing Ethan and Tim. Like they whine about bringing on Seven, getting rid of Kes, and firing Jennifer Lein.

Only difference there is Kes was a useless character and Jennifer Lein couldn't act. :}

 

[Discofan]

In case you miss my response,

Imagine your kidneys, heart, arms and legs were stolen and implanted in someone. They were taken from you by accident, it was supposed to be the guy in the next room. You will die unless you get your parts back. The authorities find out exactly what happened. The recipient doesn't want to give them back, because he or she would die. The doctor refuses to take your body parts off of/out of the recipient, even though a horrible accident happened.

If it were me, I'd hope some Janeway out there would help me recover from a situation where my one and only life was stolen from me, by accident, to benefit someone else. I'm not left wing enough to think the recipient has any rights to what's mine.

The moment a way to separate Tuvok and Neelix was found, they were OBLIGATED to do it. If they had not done it, they would consciously chosen to sacrifice the lives of two unwilling participants to give life to someone else. So sad for Tuvix, but his life was not his to keep. Thankfully, Janeway saw this.

This is such a stupid debate. Tuvok had the "right" to live, but not at the expense of two unwilling participants, who also had supreme "rights".

And I guess they answer to your question is: How much time passed is irrelevant.

If a terrorist says: "Unless you kill person X, I will kill my ten hostages!"

Your opinion is tantamount to say it is OK to accede to the terrorist's demand because it will save nine people.

I am sorry but no ethical system in the civilized world says it is ok to execute one person in order to save several. It's just not acceptable. Sisko refused to let Kira die in order to save 8000 people. I doubt he would have accepted to be Tuvix' executioner, only Janeway could do something like that. No captain before her (or since) ever executed an innocent person, by his own hand at that!

 

[DonIago]

In case you miss my response,

Imagine your kidneys, heart, arms and legs were stolen and implanted in someone. They were taken from you by accident, it was supposed to be the guy in the next room. You will die unless you get your parts back. The authorities find out exactly what happened. The recipient doesn't want to give them back, because he or she would die. The doctor refuses to take your body parts off of/out of the recipient, even though a horrible accident happened.

If it were me, I'd hope some Janeway out there would help me recover from a situation where my one and only life was stolen from me, by accident, to benefit someone else. I'm not left wing enough to think the recipient has any rights to what's mine.

The moment a way to separate Tuvok and Neelix was found, they were OBLIGATED to do it. If they had not done it, they would consciously chosen to sacrifice the lives of two unwilling participants to give life to someone else. So sad for Tuvix, but his life was not his to keep. Thankfully, Janeway saw this.

This is such a stupid debate. Tuvok had the "right" to live, but not at the expense of two unwilling participants, who also had supreme "rights".

And I guess the answer to your question is: How much time has passed is irrelevant. You wouldn't get to keep someone else's money a bank gave you accidentally, why would you get to keep someone else's life?

"Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before."

"Risk is our business!" - James T. Kirk.

And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[SolarisOne]

I was just thinking it had been awhile since we had a Tuvix thread.

I know, right?