• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Well that's "Court Martial" and "Obsession" gone then (SPOILERS)

Status
Not open for further replies.
And I don't remember any character ever being rebooted, with the exception of Spock coming back from the dead.

The recasting of Saavik, with a radical makeup change, esp. eyebrows and eye colour? Zefram Cochrane's personality change? Tora Ziyal (twice). Senator Kimara Cretak.

And Neral, and Captain Braxton, and Admiral Paris ... I know, I know. But I see those more like "character recasts" than "character reboots".

Explaining the new Cochrane is a little more difficult, though. Maybe he had changed in all those years he lived on that planet with the Companion?
A "recast" isn't a "reboot." This is another red-herring argument that I keep seeing.

"Oh, look, a different actress played Saavik.... you must be having a stroke, continuity-istas!"

Not at all. It was annoying that the character was played differently, but the background of the character was never changed. She remained a half-vulcan, half-romulan, rescued by Sarek on an abandoned Romulan colony and raised from childhood by he and Amanda on Vulcan. She continued to have been sponsored for Starfleet Academy by Sarek, and mentored by Spock.

Now, if they'd gone back and said "she's full-vulcan" or "she's Spock's little sister" or "She's actually a Klingon/Romulan hybrid" or done anything like that... this would be taking the character into "reboot" territory. But none of that was ever done, was it?

The character was recast, and the new actress played the role differently. It was annoying, arguably a bad choice (though Alley's downward spiral at the time made it inevitable!), but it's not a "reboot."
 
Why the roll eyes? Help me to understand why some changes are okay, but this level of change is not, since we are proceeding under the assumption that canon is not important and that this film is being made primarily for people who are not fans and therefore know little or nothing about the show.
Don't be such an insufferable little pimple.

I'm quite certain that, by now, you've read a number of posts, in various threads, giving examples of other legends (Arthurian ones come to mind) wherein changes have been made over time, some slight, some larger, and yet the characters and setting remain recognizably similar to the original. You cannot seriously claim ignorance of this. Your "changes", as you know perfectly well, go well beyond that--as well as well beyond any changes proposed in this new movie. You are NOT looking for "reasoned responses" to your query--you're looking to show just how clever you think you are. Well, put simply, you're not that clever. Frankly, the kind of argument structure and style you've attempted here is juvenile as you stretch the notion of using exaggeration to make a point well past any "reasonable" point. You are trying to argue there are no degrees of alteration--that any deviation from your precious "canon" no matter how slight or severe, is equally bad. And now you know why no one has bothered to give you a "reasoned response" (and why I won't waste time giving a detailed rebuttal of your post--it isn't worth the effort).
You may not agree with Basil's post... and yes, he used hyperbole there... but his point is entirely valid. And calling people him ugly names doesn't change that.

His point... which I thought was remarkably well-illustrated, frankly... was that any change is a change. How do you decide which changes are "OK" and which are "not OK?"

Nobody would argue that the changes he proposed are OK. Not him, not anyone else. But you can easily take the same arguments which are being tossed out, regularly, by folks on here to denigrate the point-of-view of those who think that the current batch of changes are NOT OK and apply those arguments to any of his "hyperbole" changes... and the arguments you guys keep making are every bit as legitimate and appropriate in that case.

Hyperbole is a great tool to illustrate the absurdity of an opposing viewpoint... IF it fits. In this case, it fits perfectly.

Who decides which "dramatic changes to 40+ years of continuity" are trivial and can be tossed aside, and which aren't? Who decides which "uber-kewl stuff" is allowable and which is ludicrous?

There are only two answers to that. Either "the studio guys get to decide, and we have to take what we've been given and say "thank you kind sir" and keep forking over our money... or "WE get to decide," and if the studio does those things, we can choose not to support the bad decisions they make.

Which is it? Do we have to accept any changes, no matter how ludicrous we think that they are, or do we have the right to decide what we like and what we don't?

The characters (so far as we know) haven't changed.
 
The recasting of Saavik, with a radical makeup change, esp. eyebrows and eye colour? Zefram Cochrane's personality change? Tora Ziyal (twice). Senator Kimara Cretak.

And Neral, and Captain Braxton, and Admiral Paris ... I know, I know. But I see those more like "character recasts" than "character reboots".

Explaining the new Cochrane is a little more difficult, though. Maybe he had changed in all those years he lived on that planet with the Companion?
A "recast" isn't a "reboot." This is another red-herring argument that I keep seeing.

"Oh, look, a different actress played Saavik.... you must be having a stroke, continuity-istas!"

Not at all. It was annoying that the character was played differently, but the background of the character was never changed. She remained a half-vulcan, half-romulan, rescued by Sarek on an abandoned Romulan colony and raised from childhood by he and Amanda on Vulcan. She continued to have been sponsored for Starfleet Academy by Sarek, and mentored by Spock.

Now, if they'd gone back and said "she's full-vulcan" or "she's Spock's little sister" or "She's actually a Klingon/Romulan hybrid" or done anything like that... this would be taking the character into "reboot" territory. But none of that was ever done, was it?

The character was recast, and the new actress played the role differently. It was annoying, arguably a bad choice (though Alley's downward spiral at the time made it inevitable!), but it's not a "reboot."

If we go by on-screen evidence we have to assume that she is Vulcan (with some emotional outbursts - like Spock in 'The Cage').

She is a much Vulcan as there is no Captain Robert April.
 
The characters (so far as we know) haven't changed.

If the spoilers turn out to be true, they have. That was the whole point of this thread! Kirk is supposed to serve on the Republic and the Farragut, but now it seems that he goes from Cadet to Captain of the Enterprise in about a week. If that doesn't count as a drastic change of a character, I don't know what does.
 
The characters (so far as we know) haven't changed.

If the spoilers turn out to be true, they have. That was the whole point of this thread! Kirk is supposed to serve on the Republic and the Farragut, but now it seems that he goes from Cadet to Captain of the Enterprise in about a week. If that doesn't count as a drastic change of a character, I don't know what does.

So he is no longer this heroic, smart, almost larger-than-life, charismatic, intelligent, born-to-be-a-leader character that he was when he was played by William Shatner?

I doubt this.
 
There is. In a TAS episode called "The Counter-Clock Incident".

Ask the average person on the street who Robert April is....

What is that supposed to proove? Ask the average person on the street who Christopher Pike is. Or Sarek. Or any secondary character on Star Trek. Does that mean there should only be three characters on the show?

Christopher Pike appeared in three episodes. Sarek appeared in one TOS episode, three movies and 2 TNG episodes.

How many episodes of live action Trek did Robert April appear in? and honestly, who would care about keeping in continuity with a badly made cartoon in the 70's?
 
There is. In a TAS episode called "The Counter-Clock Incident".

Ask the average person on the street who Robert April is....
Ask the average person on the street who Christopher Pike is...

Ask the average person on the street who Khan Noonian Singh is.

Sorry, that argument doesn't hold water.

The immortal words of William Shatner in that comedy bit he did in the 80's comes to mind....


Seriously, does the exclusion of an invented character really preclude your enjoying a movie.

Did the eroneous claim that the Enterprise is 20 years old in Star Trek III lead to the Trek odd-numbered movie curse? Was that the reason the curse started? Did Khan recognizing Chekov prevent people from enjoying Star Trek II?

Seriously...Star Trek is not some kind of prophecy of the future. It's not some kind of holy writings given to us by the Messiah Roddenberry. It's a fictional work meant to entertain.

If I enjoy Star Trek XI, I will sing its praises. If not, I will tear it down. But I will not condemn a movie I have not seen yet because they ignore a character created in a cartoon in the 70s or because they changed the look of some things.
 
Ask the average person on the street who Robert April is....
Ask the average person on the street who Christopher Pike is...

Ask the average person on the street who Khan Noonian Singh is.

Sorry, that argument doesn't hold water.

The immortal words of William Shatner in that comedy bit he did in the 80's comes to mind....


Seriously, does the exclusion of an invented character really preclude your enjoying a movie.

Did the eroneous claim that the Enterprise is 20 years old in Star Trek III lead to the Trek odd-numbered movie curse? Was that the reason the curse started? Did Khan recognizing Chekov prevent people from enjoying Star Trek II?

Seriously...Star Trek is not some kind of prophecy of the future. It's not some kind of holy writings given to us by the Messiah Roddenberry. It's a fictional work meant to entertain.

Someone need to photoshop people praying to a TOS series bible.
 
Ask the average person on the street who Robert April is....
Ask the average person on the street who Christopher Pike is...

Ask the average person on the street who Khan Noonian Singh is.

Sorry, that argument doesn't hold water.

The immortal words of William Shatner in that comedy bit he did in the 80's comes to mind....


Seriously, does the exclusion of an invented character really preclude your enjoying a movie.

Did the ereneous claim that the Enterprise is 20 years old in Star Trek III lead to the Trek odd-numbered movie curse? Was that the reason the curse started? Did Khan recognizing Chekov prevent people from enjoying Star Trek II?

Seriously...Star Trek is not some kind of prophecy of the future. It's not some kind of holy writings given to us by the Messiah Roddenberry. It's a fictional work meant to entertain.

If I enjoy Star Trek XI, I will sing its praises. If not, I will tear it down. But I will not condemn a movie I have no seen yet because they ignore a character created in a cartoon in the 70s or because they changed the look of somethings or because they changed some things.
Pal, I know you're new to the BBS, so I'm gonna give you a piece of advice.

You may be used to being snotty in other "internet" situations. Around here, it's not gonna wash. There are a handful of (fairly vocal) snotty people on here, sure, but most folks on this BBS are better than that.

I think you need to think a bit before you post any more snide comments. You have 30-some posts and you've already pissed off a few people on here. Chill out a little bit. Rein in the smart-ass attitude. It makes you look like a bratty kid.
 
I think you need to think a bit before you post any more snide comments. You have 30-some posts and you've already pissed off a few people on here. Chill out a little bit. Rein in the smart-ass attitude. It makes you look like a bratty kid.


Couldn't reply so you attacked me instead? Got it! :techman:
 
I think you need to think a bit before you post any more snide comments. You have 30-some posts and you've already pissed off a few people on here. Chill out a little bit. Rein in the smart-ass attitude. It makes you look like a bratty kid.


Couldn't reply so you attacked me instead? Got it! :techman:
(sigh)...

I'm guessing you're twelve?

If so... you're acting your age and we should accept it. I don't expect emotional maturity in kids.

If not, well... you've already attacked me, and several others, in pretty snide, smart-assed fashion in several threads. And you seem not to be able to grasp the arguments being made in any case... prefering, instead, to insult and berate (which is really sort of amusing).

Again... you're new here. You don't know the personalities or the dynamics. My advice is to rein in the attempts to "score points with putdowns." It's not gonna wash around here.
 
I think you need to think a bit before you post any more snide comments. You have 30-some posts and you've already pissed off a few people on here. Chill out a little bit. Rein in the smart-ass attitude. It makes you look like a bratty kid.


Couldn't reply so you attacked me instead? Got it! :techman:
I'll give you an answer.

I haven't enjoyed any of the Star Trek movies as much as an average episode of TOS. I've seen each TOS episode many times; most of the movies just a couple. They just don't do much for me.

---------------
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top