Watching Arrow for the First Time

[tomalak301]

Finished Season 4 tonight. I enjoyed it, even if it was campy and hokey at the end. I'm kinda glad I got through this season because I think it got way too convoluted for it's own good. I did love the music (Blake Neely is pretty underrated for these Arrowverse shows. If he wanted to do Star Trek, I would welcome it) and the action is always great. I just could have done without the Smoak melodrama (Why add comedy to it when Nukes are going off and the world is going to be destroyed?), or the "This city needs hope" which is becoming a TV Cliche in these shows. I look at the previous seasons finales and how much tension there was and I can't help but think Season 4's finale lacked that. Maybe if a lot of this story was set up better it could have had a much better impact.

Despite that though, I'm actually still enjoying the show. The story might be convoluted, there might be a little too much melodrama, but I still enjoy bits of this show and even the various characters. I still like Felicity, when she's not focused as a relationship pawn. I like Diggle, who I thought actually had a great season for the most part. I also still like Oliver, who has to deal with this darkness and it's a theme that's been running through the whole series, from when he becomes The Arrow to his No Kill rule and now his killing of Darhk because he didn't have a choice.

I've heard season 5 is off to a promising start and I'm actually excited for it. I'm excited that Season 4 seemed to set Arrow in a direction to go back to basics, and maybe we can strip down some of the meat. Also, now that I've seen the series, I feel like I can appreciate the 100th episode a lot more than I did.

 

[dahj]

I'm always a bit uncomfortable talking about the concept of fridging because it comes with a negative connotation even though it advances the story.

Advancing the story is all well and good, but the way in which they did it is just a tired use of a lazy trope that's really overstayed its welcome.

When it comes to Laurel, she died because of something her father did, and to advance Oliver's storyline. It wasn't about her, something she did, she didn't go down a hero saving anyone or sacrificing herself for the greater good, she died helpless, frozen, just waiting to be executed.

If they did it once, fine, but... Shado, Moira, Sara, Waller and Laurel were all killed, all defenseless and basically executed. None of them died fighting, and none of them died for anything relating to their story, or because of something they did, they died to "advance the story" of the male protagonist.
(Also, Felicity, Thea and McKenna were all also nearly killed/crippled for similar reasons)

On the other hand, the men, right off the bat not that many have died, and of those that did: Robert Queen sacrificed himself to save his son. When Tommy died, he died running into a collapsing building wanting to save Laurel. Hell, even Deadshot died a hero saving everyone else.

There's a marked difference in how male and female characters were treated in regards to dying, men are given heroic deaths, while women get fucking fridged.

 

[Turtletrekker]

@dodge -- I wish I could "like" that more than once.

 

[tomalak301]

@dodge

I can't argue with any of that. I hope it's a troupe that goes away. I don't mind if characters die if it advances the story for that character but let's have some well written death scenes that make sense. It's one of the things that always bothered me about DS9 and Jadzia. That could be a fridging as well. Just wish more female characters were given the hero treatment. Maybe that's one of the big reasons I love Supergirl.

 

[tomalak301]

Did I just watch the season 5 premiere or what should have been the season 3 premiere. That episode was great and reminded me a lot of Season 1. I'm hesitant though as I thought the first half of season 3 and 4 were good but there was a tone to Legacy that I haven't felt in this series since season 2. I hope for more of that.

 

[dahj]

Just wish more female characters were given the hero treatment.

Yeah, what sucks the most is that they really are some good, strong, complex characters right up until the moment when they have to die and they're depowered and stripped of any agency.

I hope for more of that.

Season 5 so far has been the strongest streak of really good episodes they've had in a while.

 

[tomalak301]

You know what I like about season 5 so far? Consequences are being dealt with in a real, non angsty way. We get Diggle having to deal with the fact that he had to kill his brother, and the return of dead shot was a pleasant surprise. I wish more was done with it but what we got was pretty good stuff. The thing I did like though was Felicity's decision to transfer the Nuke was also dealt with pretty well. The writers could have forgotten about this story and just moved on but they didn't and I appreciate that. So far of the new recruits I really like Rory.

I am confused about something though. I watched episode four and what exactly is Church's plan? I was kinda confused by that entire story and the only things I paid attention to was the escape of Diggle and then Rene being captured and Tortured. Oh and the Flashbacks might be the best part of this season so far. Love Anatoli.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

I think Church's plan was very simple.
Show up as a strong man and bully everyone around to become Star City's crime kingpin because everyone else was too afraid of Team Arrow.
There wasn't anything more to it.

Bit like Trump, only he used brass knuckles instead of Twitter.

 

[tomalak301]

I think Church's plan was very simple.
Show up as a strong man and bully everyone around to become Star City's crime kingpin because everyone else was too afraid of Team Arrow.
There wasn't anything more to it.

Bit like Trump, only he used brass knuckles instead of Twitter.

Thank you for clarifying except for that last bit about Trump. I never got political in this thread and other than what happens on the show I don't want to get political.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

It was a joke at Trump's expense. I think he can take it. No intention to instigate a political debate.

 

[Christopher]

As I recall, Church's goal was to be an anti-Green Arrow. He had this speech about how the Green Arrow had organized the vigilantes into an effective team, so to counter them, Star City's criminals had to unite and organize as well. Basically he wanted to be the Kingpin, the mastermind of a unified, citywide crime empire.

 

[tomalak301]

As I recall, Church's goal was to be an anti-Green Arrow. He had this speech about how the Green Arrow had organized the vigilantes into an effective team, so to counter them, Star City's criminals had to unite and organize as well. Basically he wanted to be the Kingpin, the mastermind of a unified, citywide crime empire.

Sounds like the plot for the first season of Daredevil. I'm not complaining though. I'm enjoying the lack of magic and mysticism this season so far.

 

[dahj]

Sounds like the plot for the first season of Daredevil.

Daredevil didn't exactly invent organized crime

 

[theenglish]

Thank you for clarifying except for that last bit about Trump. I never got political in this thread and other than what happens on the show I don't want to get political.

Well, Trump has been the punchline to jokes since the eighties--I don't think being president is going to stop that, and the way he conducts himself means he's pretty fair game for jokes without going into any political commentary.

New I'm enjoying the current season so far, and I've enjoyed reading the reactions to the early seasons. For one, I would like to see Dinah from Earth 2 join the cast with a backstory much more similar to her Silver Age comic book version.

 

[tomalak301]

Other than the midseason finale, I'm all caught up with Arrow. If there is one thing I'm having difficulty with it's other than Rory I'm not really interested in the new recruits and Curtis has become a little annoying. I thought he was going to be a new version of Felicity but I'm not sure I like him actually in the field. Wild Dog is ok and his stuff with Diggle has been good but I almost expect him to die before the season is out. Evelyn now working for Prometheus i hope becomes interesting but kinda undermines her issues with Oliver being a killer in season 1. The best storyline has been Thea and Quinten, who both have grown so much since the early days. I'm enjoying the season much more than season 3 and 4 and I hope the back half doesn't diminish that. Also I still have the midseason finale (going to rewatch the invasion crossover) so hopefully it's a good launching point into the second half. I am sad this is the last midseason finale i don't have to wait for the next episode for a month. This watch has been fun and interesting. The flashbacks have also been the best part of this season so far, which is interesting because they were kinda annoying in the last two seasons.

 

[tomalak301]

This is probably the final post I make in this thread because the other thread will be back next week, but I have come to the place where I decided to start watching this series, "Invasion". I have to say it's a lot better episode on a second watch, especially when you have basically watched the entire series in a month. This was really about celebrating the series, even though I was wondering why they couldn't get the guy who played Tommy back. I enjoyed all the little references and hints back to the past, like Merlyn Global, Oliver's parents, and it was nice to see Laurel back. I still say though that how people felt about Supergirl's part of the overall crossover is how I kinda felt with Arrow's part, in that this really wasn't about the crossover other than the final 5 minutes. I almost wish they had planned the crossover as the midseason premieres of the three shows. I know they have to address the cliffhangers, but this would be a way to launch the second half of the season, and they could almost hold off a week on Supergirl or something. Still, after watching the series during the hiatus, I enjoyed Arrow's part a lot more than originally.

 

[Christopher]

I was wondering why they couldn't get the guy who played Tommy back.

Because he's a regular on some medical show now. That's what Malcolm's line about Tommy being a doctor in Chicago was a joke reference to. (And it doesn't make much sense, since it takes a lot more than 4 years to become a doctor.)

 

[dahj]

(And it doesn't make much sense, since it takes a lot more than 4 years to become a doctor.)

It's been over 9 years at that point since the "timelines" diverged, plenty of time to become a doctor.