Was the "Commordore" rank eliminated to fill the Admiralcy?

[poloronbeam]

In thinking about Kirk's seemingly difficulty in transitioning from starship captain to Admiral, it made me wonder if an explanation for Star Fleet's elimination of the "Commodore" rank was that perhaps Kirk was not the only individual who would not have given up starship duties unless they were "forced" to to so.

From TOS, it appears to have been possible to still command a starship up until the rank of Commodore, and that all admirals were prohibited from starship duties except in emergencies. It's possible from this that Star Fleet could have been experiencing a "thining of the ranks" in that there were many starship captains who wanted a promotions but did not want to be relieved of starship command. Hence the rank of Commodore may have been the ideal solution for both Star Fleet and those captains, at least for the first 100+ years of SF existence.

As more races were encountered, Star Fleet could have believed that they needed more experienced personnel (Starship Captains) that would be able to contribute to "the big picture" as Admirals would (at least in theory), and the only way they could generate enough people to fill the ranks was to get rid of the commodore rank and force those who did want a promotion to accept a promotion or stay at Captain level.

Those that couldn't adjust properly to this forced promotion either quit Star Fleet (as Kirk did eventually), or just became administratively incompetent/corrupt until they were tossed out of Star Fleet, as we have seen throughout all the series (see TNG, DS9, Voy).

Any thoughts?

 

[Red Ranger]

Well, my first thought is there's no such rank as "Commordore!" Sorry, had to say it. You can ask a Mod to correct your thread title.

It's not a bad conjecture. I think TNG decided to get rid of the Commodore rank simply because it was eliminated in the real-world U.S. Navy, although my understanding is the title "commodore" is used for a captain in charge of a small group of ships. Any swabbos on this board feel free to confirm this.

In the U.S., the rank of "commodore" has had an unusual history, being used and dropped several times over the course of nearly 200 years. Check out the Wikipedia entry on the rank's history in the U.S. At one point, folks in the U.S. navy could only advance to the rank of captain, as the U.S. felt creating admirals was akin to creating a naval aristocracy.

Red Ranger

 

[Captain Robert April]

By the time of TNG, Roddenberry had decided that he didn't like the term "commodore." He thought it sounded too much like some rich guy with a yacht. The fact that the Navy had dropped the rank gave him all the cover he needed to drop the rank in Starfleet.

 

[Timo]

He also shrewdly avoided the USN's de facto successor to that rank, the butt of all jokes, the dreaded Rear Admiral, Lower Half.

Come to think of it, nobody anywhere in Trek seems to have had the guts to say "Rear Admiral" out loud. Vice Admiral seemed to be okay, though, once Miami Vice made vice hip...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ALF]

It was because of this.

My source is never wrong.

 

[Orcus]

Such a shame too, as Commodore was always my favourite rank - being a nice halfway point between the active and desk-bound groups. It looks nice on the sleeves too..

...then again, the term does tend to conjure up an image of Lionel Ritchie...

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Some basic info (from Wikipedia, as a caviot)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(rank)

The most relevant portion thereof:

The rank of Commodore was at first a position created as a temporary title to be bestowed upon Captains who commanded squadrons of more than one vessel. In many navies, the rank of Commodore was merely viewed as a Senior Captain position, whereas other naval services bestowed upon the rank of Commodore the prestige of flag officer status - Commodore is the highest rank in the Irish Naval Service, for example, and is held by only one person. In the Royal Navy, the position was introduced to combat the cost of appointing more Admirals - a costly business with a fleet as large as the Royal Navy's at that time.

There is no indication, as far as I'm concerned, that there is no such thing as a "Commodore" anymore in Starfleet. I just see it as a "transitional" position. Most likely, Matt Decker (for example) was promoted to Commodore due to time in grade and quality of service, but there were no "admiral" postings available at the time. The commodores are basically "in the queue" for taking a position in the Admiralty, and get some (but not all) of the benefits thereof.

The only major deviation from this was in TMP with Kirk. One would presume that his "skipping over" promotion in TMP was "politically motivated"... he was a public hero and someone wanted to make a public relations grandstanding move, which he got caught up in. (This is similar to what Abrams did in ST'09, though no where remotely as egregious... in other words, I can actually imagine a celebrated captain "hopscotching" directly to Admiral, while I cannot possibly ever accept a Cadet being promoted to Captain.)

 

[johcomp]

Did he ditch Commodore during S3, when he introduced "fleet captain" Garth?

Or did he do it when Shatner started plugging Vic20 Computers?

 

[Vance]

"Fleet Captain" is.. pretty much, another way of saying Commodore, though it's more a statement of position rather than rank, I suppose. Remember that Pike was also mentioned as a Fleet Captain in the very same episode that Commodore Menedez was talking about him.

 

[BenRoethig]

Some basic info (from Wikipedia, as a caviot)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(rank)

The most relevant portion thereof:

The rank of Commodore was at first a position created as a temporary title to be bestowed upon Captains who commanded squadrons of more than one vessel. In many navies, the rank of Commodore was merely viewed as a Senior Captain position, whereas other naval services bestowed upon the rank of Commodore the prestige of flag officer status - Commodore is the highest rank in the Irish Naval Service, for example, and is held by only one person. In the Royal Navy, the position was introduced to combat the cost of appointing more Admirals - a costly business with a fleet as large as the Royal Navy's at that time.

There is no indication, as far as I'm concerned, that there is no such thing as a "Commodore" anymore in Starfleet. I just see it as a "transitional" position. Most likely, Matt Decker (for example) was promoted to Commodore due to time in grade and quality of service, but there were no "admiral" postings available at the time. The commodores are basically "in the queue" for taking a position in the Admiralty, and get some (but not all) of the benefits thereof.

The only major deviation from this was in TMP with Kirk. One would presume that his "skipping over" promotion in TMP was "politically motivated"... he was a public hero and someone wanted to make a public relations grandstanding move, which he got caught up in. (This is similar to what Abrams did in ST'09, though no where remotely as egregious... in other words, I can actually imagine a celebrated captain "hopscotching" directly to Admiral, while I cannot possibly ever accept a Cadet being promoted to Captain.)

Skipping flag ranks is not uncommon, especially O-7 Rear Admiral (Commodore) or Brigadier General. A lot of flag billets come with rank assigned by law.

 

[Vance]

That and most admiralty positions are not field-based promotions but political ones (as Kirk himself implies more than once). "Commodore" would, effectively, be the ultimate field-based promotion before politics would become neccessary (and even then, a position would have to be available in the first place).

 

[ahkyahnan]

Vice Admiral seemed to be okay, though, once Miami Vice made vice hip...

Vices have always been hip.

 

[ahkyahnan]

There is no indication, as far as I'm concerned, that there is no such thing as a "Commodore" anymore in Starfleet. I just see it as a "transitional" position. Most likely, Matt Decker (for example) was promoted to Commodore due to time in grade and quality of service, but there were no "admiral" postings available at the time. The commodores are basically "in the queue" for taking a position in the Admiralty, and get some (but not all) of the benefits thereof.

The only major deviation from this was in TMP with Kirk. One would presume that his "skipping over" promotion in TMP was "politically motivated"...

Just a question. If you're saying the rank of Commodore is a "queue" rank until an admiral posting becomes available, would Kirk necessarily then be a deviation?

Maybe when his time for promotion came up, there were admiral postings available so he didn't have to spend any time in rank purgatory so to speak.

Mark

 

[Timo]

We have no evidence that Kirk skipped Commodore. He's much, much older in ST:TMP than he was in TOS. Probably a decade older. Plenty of time for him to have gone from Captain to Commodore to the witnessed Rear Admiral.

...Not skipping Fleet Captain. I just don't believe in that rank. After all, it was only ever mentioned once, in connection with Pike. Garth wasn't Fleet Captain, he was "starship fleet Captain", Captain in the starship fleet, just like Kirk. He didn't outrank Kirk as a plot point. So the reference to Pike as Fleet Captain could just as well be interpreted as shorthand for Starfleet Captain, too, thus avoiding a fictional rank that doesn't really have a place in the USN system TOS tries to emulate.

There is no indication, as far as I'm concerned, that there is no such thing as a "Commodore" anymore in Starfleet.

In "Coming of Age", Captain Picard is to be directly made into an Admiral of some sort, suggesting but not establishing that the rank of Commodore is missing from in between.

However, in "Conspiracy" we get insight into the rank markings of TNG Season 1 flag uniforms: there are three variants, with zero, 1 or 2 pips. Thus it appears that the zero-pip uniform goes for the lowest flag rank. And all previous episodes have referred to people wearing this uniform as "Admiral", which is no way to address a Commodore.

So there's at least that sort of evidence against the existence of the rank of Commodore in TNG. Or, rather, evidence for the idea that Starfleet renamed Commodore something else in TNG, something that warrants the form of address "Admiral". Perhaps the pukeworthy Rear Admiral, Lower Half after all? Or perhaps something new, like Flotilla Admiral?

Vices have always been hip.

And hips have often been considered vice.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

From TOS, it appears to have been possible to still command a starship up until the rank of Commodore, and that all admirals were prohibited from starship duties except in emergencies. It's possible from this that Star Fleet could have been experiencing a "thining of the ranks" in that there were many starship captains who wanted a promotions but did not want to be relieved of starship command. Hence the rank of Commodore may have been the ideal solution for both Star Fleet and those captains, at least for the first 100+ years of SF existence.

As more races were encountered, Star Fleet could have believed that they needed more experienced personnel (Starship Captains) that would be able to contribute to "the big picture" as Admirals would (at least in theory), and the only way they could generate enough people to fill the ranks was to get rid of the commodore rank and force those who did want a promotion to accept a promotion or stay at Captain level.

If the higher-ups wanted to fill more upper ranks, they could do it without having to eliminate a whole grade. They could simply say, "You are hereby ordered to take the position and grade of rear admiral." If officers want to disobey the order, dismiss them, problem solved. That's a lot more realistic than these things are usually handled in Trek, though.

By the time of TNG, Roddenberry had decided that he didn't like the term "commodore." He thought it sounded too much like some rich guy with a yacht. The fact that the Navy had dropped the rank gave him all the cover he needed to drop the rank in Starfleet.

Maybe so, but I don't really see how that helps. First, the US Navy didn't use the commodore grade in 1966, either, so real world precedent doesn't seem to have been an issue. Second, r/w "cover" implies something along the line of "Starfleet dropped commodore in 2360 (or whenever) because the USN dropped it in 1899," which doesn't make a lot of sense.

I prefer to think commodore was still a Starfleet grade in the TNG-and-after period, they just aren't in the same circles as our heroes. There is nothing against this idea, since things are very vague about "one-pip admirals."

There is no indication, as far as I'm concerned, that there is no such thing as a "Commodore" anymore in Starfleet. I just see it as a "transitional" position. Most likely, Matt Decker (for example) was promoted to Commodore due to time in grade and quality of service, but there were no "admiral" postings available at the time. The commodores are basically "in the queue" for taking a position in the Admiralty, and get some (but not all) of the benefits thereof.

Very plausible, but commodore is specifically identified as a flag rank in "The Deadly Years," which indicates to me that it was more of a "one-star admiral" than a senior captain grade.

Skipping flag ranks is not uncommon, especially O-7 Rear Admiral (Commodore) or Brigadier General. A lot of flag billets come with rank assigned by law.

It is very uncommon in the US services, especially at O-7 where there is an exhaustive selection process. The jobs that have statutory grade are almost always filled by officers of the same grade or the next grade below. There have been instances of skipping O-8 or O-9 grades, but they are rare.

--Justin

 

[Captain Robert April]

We have no evidence that Kirk skipped Commodore. He's much, much older in ST:TMP than he was in TOS. Probably a decade older. Plenty of time for him to have gone from Captain to Commodore to the witnessed Rear Admiral.

On screen dialogue puts TMP just three years after the five year mission depicted in TOS, so Kirk is only around five years older than when we saw him during the third season.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, TMP was in 2271 according to the Chronology books meaning it was only 2 years after TOS ended. He was either a 1 Pip Rear Admiral or they gave him a two-step promotion to two-Pip Rear Admiral. He couldn't have been made a Vice Admiral that fast (though by WOK he was, but that was a decade later).

 

[Timo]

On screen dialogue puts TMP just three years after the five year mission depicted in TOS

No, it does not. It merely puts TMP 2.5 years after Kirk's last space sortie.

Which he could well have performed as Commodore and commanding officer of USS Temerity, in 2274, four years after his five-year mission ended.

so Kirk is only around five years older than when we saw him during the third season.

The only point at which we know Kirk's age in "The Deadly Years". (That, and STXI, but the movie offers no good comparison points for the rest of Star Trek.) There is no onscreen information on when ST:TMP takes place, except "more than 300 years after the launch of Voyager 6", and then conjecture like "they don't yet wear the uniforms we first saw on the Bozeman crew that sailed out before 2278". A date of early 2278 would probably be the most satisfactory, allowing for Voyager 6 to be launched later than the real-world Voyagers 1 and 2, although this is by no means a strict requirement.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[plynch]

It is clearly stated in first season TNG episode, "Way of the Commodore," that commodore rank has been eliminated due to a possible conspiracy in starfleet which Picard is being recruited secretly to fight, but he refuses, then Wesley saves the ship. Sheesh.

 

[QuasarVM]

What's a Commordore?