Was Spock Kirk's Adjutant at Starfleet Academy?

[C.E. Evans]

I guess you never heard of a dictionary, but as I said before, there's also different contexts the term has been used in (some don't even feature any generals or admirals at all).

No need to be snotty about it. There are a lot of dictionaries, but I can't find one that supports your definition. If the way the term is "usually" used is indeed as you said, some supporting citation shouldn't be too hard to find.

No, it's just a case that when you're talking about "a general staff" you're either talking about a staff of generals (or admirals) or you're not. I was responding to another poster about the former, which "usually" consists of generals/admirals (presumably reporting to a ranking general/admiral).

Which is indeed what I said (note my emphasis on "admirals") and does fit what I said above.

In post #9 you said the term refereed to all generals and by extension all admirals. Then in #13 you said it was referring only to specific key individuals. The two are not consistent, hence the confusion.

That's because you didn't get the context of my response to another poster about Kirk belonging to the "Starfleet General Staff." I proposed a better naval term would be "the Admiralty."

 

[J.T.B.]

No, it's just a case that when you're talking about "a general staff" you're either talking about a staff of generals (or admirals) or you're not. I was responding to another poster about the former, which "usually" consists of generals/admirals (presumably reporting to a ranking general/admiral).

But that's not what you said. What you said was: "'General staff' is a term usually applied to all army and air force generals. The term has also been used to describe all admirals within a navy too, but the terms 'the Admiralty' or 'flag officers' are more commonly used." That's not correct and you have not provided one citation for the term being used that way.

 

[MacLeod]

It still doesn't make any sense that the Commandant of Stafleet Academy would be in the loop on Genesis. There's no practical reason for someone in that position to have access. I doubt the Commandant of the U.S. Naval Academy is in the loop on the latest Top Secret Research to the point that he can access files on it.

I could be wrong.

Even if Kirk was Commandant of the Academy, he might be new to that posting and his previous role involved the Genesis Project.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

It still doesn't make any sense that the Commandant of Stafleet Academy would be in the loop on Genesis. There's no practical reason for someone in that position to have access. I doubt the Commandant of the U.S. Naval Academy is in the loop on the latest Top Secret Research to the point that he can access files on it.

It may not be a question of assignment but rank. Kirk was an admiral and had been since the early-2270s. His position as Commandant of Starfleet Academy may not have afforded him the prestige of his previous post as Chief of Starfleet Operations, but he may still have possessed the necessary security clearances to view any documentation of the project (as evidenced by his being able to view the project proposal from his quarters in TWOK).

--Sran

 

[BillJ]

It may not be a question of assignment but rank. Kirk was an admiral and had been since the early-2270s. His position as Commandant of Starfleet Academy may not have afforded him the prestige of his previous post as Chief of Starfleet Operations, but he may still have possessed the necessary security clearances to view any documentation of the project (as evidenced by his being able to view the project proposal from his quarters in TWOK).

Two things here:

1) Security clearances usually change with the role you are in.

2) Kirk made a tape (evidently) on the Project Genesis proposals (STIII).

I guess for those that are married to the idea of Kirk being the head of the Academy, the best solution is that he recently moved into that role and his clearances hadn't yet changed. (Per MacLeod )

For me, it seems to me that he was mentoring a group of upper class cadets (command school?). As Commandant of the Academy, it wouldn't be up to him how the Enterprise was staffed on regular missions.

McCOY: Admiral? Wouldn't it be easier to just put an experienced crew back on the ship?
KIRK: Galloping about the cosmos is a game for the young, Doctor.

There's nothing to me that screams that he is the Commandant of the Academy.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Security clearances usually change with the role you are in.

Yes, but who's to say Kirk's role wouldn't have included the necessary clearance to view the Genesis materials? We know he had access because he was seen viewing the proposal video with Spock and McCoy.

I guess for those that are married to the idea of Kirk being the head of the Academy, the best solution is that he recently moved into that role and his clearances hadn't yet changed.

One other idea that hasn't been discussed yet: as Starfleet Command ordered Kirk to investigate, perhaps Kirk was granted special authorization to view the Genesis materials so that he would have an idea of what he was walking into. He seemed not to know that Reliant was the vessel assigned to finding test sites for the project, at least not until he discovered Terrell and Chekov at Regula One.

For me, it seems to me that he was mentoring a group of upper class cadets (command school?). As Commandant of the Academy, it wouldn't be up to him how the Enterprise was staffed on regular missions.

Nor has anyone implied that it would be. I speculated in one of my earlier posts that Kirk and Spock organized a sort of reunion of the ship's old senior staff, but that wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with the type of mission the ship undertook.

McCOY: Admiral? Wouldn't it be easier to just put an experienced crew back on the ship?
KIRK: Galloping about the cosmos is a game for the young, Doctor.

There's nothing to me that screams that he is the Commandant of the Academy.

There's nothing that Screams the quote was from The Search for Spock, as it's clearly a line from TWOK.

--Sran

 

[BillJ]

There's nothing that Screams the quote was from The Search for Spock, as it's clearly a line from TWOK.

--Sran

Typo. Was talking to the Missus online at the same time.

 

[Avro Arrow]

I think the fact that Kirk didn't know what Genesis initially was is proof that he wasn't in the loop.

He never acts like he doesn't know what Genesis is?

He seemed like he didn't know what it was really about, or else he would have jumped on it immediately after Carol's message that someone was taking it away from her without proper authorization.

I have to agree with BillJ here. My interpretation is that Kirk knew about Genesis from the beginning, and there really isn't anything in the film that indicates he doesn't, IMHO. Watch the scene again where Marcus contacts Kirk. Kirk appears to immediately know what Marcus refers to when she mentions "Genesis", and his confusion is around who was trying to take it, not what it was. He also seems fairly confident that no one has the authority to take it away from the project team. Not once does he say anything like "what's Genesis" or "what are you talking about?"

ADMIRAL J.T. KIRK: Give up Genesis, she said. What in God's name does that mean?

The very next line that he speaks is "Give it up to whom?", so again, his question about "what...does that mean" is related more to who was trying to take it, versus what it was.

And it's after that line that Spock reveals that he doesn't know what Genesis is, so Kirk decides to read Spock and McCoy in at that point.

Granted, Kirk is probably not directly involved with the project, because he can only "assume" that they've reached stage two... but he seems fully aware of what the project is.

Even if Kirk was Commandant of the Academy, he might be new to that posting and his previous role involved the Genesis Project.

In TSFS, Kruge refers to Kirk as "the Genesis commander", but he's probably basing this on the fact that Kirk narrated the Genesis tape he viewed, and we don't know if it is actually true or not.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

As far as what Kirk was doing there, it never seemed to me that he was actively involved in the training. It seemed more like a high-level inspection tour.

His involvement with that cadet crew was definitely recent. Witness:

KIRK (continuing): And who is this?

PRESTON (breathless): Midshipman First Class Peter Preston, engineers mate, SIR.

A big salute. Kirk is amused, returns the salute.

KIRK: Your first training voyage, Mr. Preston?

PRESTON: Yes, SIR.

And

Kirk and party leave.

CAMERA PUSHES IN ON SPOCK AND SAAVIK.

SAAVIK: He's not what I expected, Sir.

SPOCK: What did you expect, Lieutenant?

SAAVIK (uncertain): He's very human.

Clearly Kirk didn't know the cadets and the cadets didn't know him. The most likely explanation is that an admiral always accompanies a trainee crew on their voyage, and given that the Enterprise was the ship doing the cruise, Kirk volunteered for the job.

 

[Timewalker]

Or maybe Spock just invited him on that occasion, perhaps to "show off" his protegee, Saavik, and introduce her as a promising young officer. In other words, to use our modern term for it, Spock was "networking" on Saavik's behalf.

 

[C.E. Evans]

No, it's just a case that when you're talking about "a general staff" you're either talking about a staff of generals (or admirals) or you're not. I was responding to another poster about the former, which "usually" consists of generals/admirals (presumably reporting to a ranking general/admiral).

But that's not what you said.

Actually, it was what I said to the other poster. You even repeated it below (although the context is again missing):

What you said was: "'General staff' is a term usually applied to all army and air force generals. The term has also been used to describe all admirals within a navy too, but the terms 'the Admiralty' or 'flag officers' are more commonly used." That's not correct and you have not provided one citation for the term being used that way.

When I'm referring to a staff of generals (and not admirals), why would I need a citation? Do I need to have a citation that an admiralty has admirals in it?

I have to agree with BillJ here. My interpretation is that Kirk knew about Genesis from the beginning, and there really isn't anything in the film that indicates he doesn't, IMHO. Watch the scene again where Marcus contacts Kirk. Kirk appears to immediately know what Marcus refers to when she mentions "Genesis", and his confusion is around who was trying to take it, not what it was. He also seems fairly confident that no one has the authority to take it away from the project team. Not once does he say anything like "what's Genesis" or "what are you talking about?"

To me, it seems that if Kirk fully knew what Genesis was about--and how dangerous it was if it fell into the wrong hands--he would have dropped everything right then and there upon hearing it being taken without authorization, and treated it immediately as a priority-one alert, informing Starfleet after commandeering the Enterprise. Instead, he treated it as something he needed to discuss with Starfleet about first.

The very next line that he speaks is "Give it up to whom?", so again, his question about "what...does that mean" is related more to who was trying to take it, versus what it was.

If Kirk truly knew what Genesis was fully about, that last line makes him pretty much an idiot, IMO. He should have known what that meant if someone was taking something that potentially dangerous without authorization.

I think that Kirk may have heard about Genesis as some sort of project Carol Marcus was working on, but he didn't really know what it truly was until he had a confab with Starfleet.

Clearly Kirk didn't know the cadets and the cadets didn't know him.

I graduated from a class of just 450 students in high school. My principal knew a lot of us, but not every single one of us. Likewise, quite a few of us didn't know him personally. Still, he was our principal.

The most likely explanation is that an admiral always accompanies a trainee crew on their voyage, and given that the Enterprise was the ship doing the cruise, Kirk volunteered for the job.

That can easily be a case that Kirk tagged along on the Enterprise because he was the Commandant and the ship had been assigned as a cadet training vessel at the Academy. That easily explains why he was involved in a cadet's taking of the Kobayashi Maru simulation there and why he went on a subsequent cadet cruise.

Or maybe Spock just invited him on that occasion, perhaps to "show off" his protegee, Saavik, and introduce her as a promising young officer. In other words, to use our modern term for it, Spock was "networking" on Saavik's behalf.

Can't dismiss that possibility, but I would have thought Kirk had better (and more important) things to do if he wasn't actually associated with the Academy.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I think that Kirk may have heard about Genesis as some sort of project Carol Marcus was working on, but he didn't really know what it truly was until he had a confab with Starfleet.

I agree and stand by my earlier theory that Kirk was given access to the Genesis materials after alerting Starfleet to problems at Regula One. It's not clear how much time passes between Carol's message and his conversation with Spock, so he may have viewed the Genesis tape himself before taking command of the ship.

I graduated from a class of just 450 students in high school. My principal knew a lot of us, but not every single one of us. Likewise, quite a few of us didn't know him personally. Still, he was our principal.

Right. I don't think Kirk's unfamiliarity with the Enterprise cadets means he wasn't involved with the Academy. On the contrary, I think it speaks to how far removed from his former vessel he'd become due to his being trapped in a desk-job.

That can easily be a case that Kirk tagged along on the Enterprise because he was the Commandant and the ship had been assigned as a cadet training vessel at the Academy. That easily explains why he was involved in a cadet's taking of the Kobayashi Maru simulation there and why he went on a subsequent cadet cruise.

Agree again. Whatever Kirk's assignment, I've a hard time believing he wouldn't have had more important things to do than volunteer for training cruises that his friends happen to be part of. He was aboard Enterprise because he was suppsed to be there. Might he have chosen Enterprise over another vessel engaged in a training cruise at the same time? Perhaps, but that would hardly seem out of place given his posting.

--Sran

 

[Nerys Myk]

KIRK: Aren't you dead? I assume you are loitering here to learn what efficiency rating I plan to give your cadets.
SPOCK: I am understandably curious.
KIRK: They destroyed the simulator room and you with it.
SPOCK: The Kobayashi Maru scenario frequently wreaks havoc with students and equipment. As I recall you took the test three times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique?
KIRK: It had the virtue of never having been tried. Oh, by the way, ...thank you for this.
SPOCK: I know of your fondness for antiques.
KIRK: 'It was the best of times, it was the worst of times' ...Message, Spock?
SPOCK: None of that I'm conscious of ...except, of course, happy birthday, ...surely the best of times.
TANNOY VOICE: Captain Spock, Captain Spock, space shuttle leaving in fifteen minutes.
KIRK: Where are you off to, now?
SPOCK: The Enterprise. I must check in before your inspection. And you?
KIRK: Home.

From this it seems clear that Kirk was evaluating Spock's trainees in the Kobayashi Maru and would further evaluate them on the three week training crew. It seems unlikely that the Commandant of Starfleet Academy would be in such a role. He has an entire school to run and can't be present at every test or take a three week jaunt. It's more likely he was there as a representative of Stafleet Command.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

From this it seems clear that Kirk was evaluating Spock's trainees in the Kobayashi Maru and would further evaluate them on the three week training crew. It seems unlikely that the Commandant of Starfleet Academy would be in such a role. He has an entire school to run and can't be present at every test or take a three week jaunt. It's more likely he was there as a representative of Stafleet Command.

Why not? Admiral Brand conducted an investigation into the actions of four cadets in her role as Commandant in "The First Duty." Granted, that investigation was spurred by the death of a cadet, but surely other officers could have handled the matter.

--Sran

 

[Avro Arrow]

I have to agree with BillJ here. My interpretation is that Kirk knew about Genesis from the beginning, and there really isn't anything in the film that indicates he doesn't, IMHO. Watch the scene again where Marcus contacts Kirk. Kirk appears to immediately know what Marcus refers to when she mentions "Genesis", and his confusion is around who was trying to take it, not what it was. He also seems fairly confident that no one has the authority to take it away from the project team. Not once does he say anything like "what's Genesis" or "what are you talking about?"

To me, it seems that if Kirk fully knew what Genesis was about--and how dangerous it was if it fell into the wrong hands--he would have dropped everything right then and there upon hearing it being taken without authorization, and treated it immediately as a priority-one alert, informing Starfleet after commandeering the Enterprise. Instead, he treated it as something he needed to discuss with Starfleet about first.

He seemed to take it fairly seriously to me. It's probably his duty to report the possible breach immediately. As well, he probably needed to check with Starfleet Command to ensure there wasn't a legally-issued order to confiscate Genesis. Because of the communication jamming, his discussion with Marcus didn't really give him a lot of information.

The very next line that he speaks is "Give it up to whom?", so again, his question about "what...does that mean" is related more to who was trying to take it, versus what it was.

If Kirk truly knew what Genesis was fully about, that last line makes him pretty much an idiot, IMO. He should have known what that meant if someone was taking something that potentially dangerous without authorization.

At this point, they're already underway to Regula, and Kirk is just musing. In his talk with Starfleet, they would have confirmed there was no such order. Kirk doesn't know about Reliant's involvement, so he's understandably curious about why Marcus would think there was such an order, and who she thought she had to give Genesis up to.

I think that Kirk may have heard about Genesis as some sort of project Carol Marcus was working on, but he didn't really know what it truly was until he had a confab with Starfleet.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. My interpretation has always been that Kirk knew full well what Genesis was from the beginning. But I suppose either interpretation is possible. (And to be fair, I did read the novelization before I ever saw the movie, so there may be something in there that flavoured my take on it.)

Clearly Kirk didn't know the cadets and the cadets didn't know him.

I graduated from a class of just 450 students in high school. My principal knew a lot of us, but not every single one of us. Likewise, quite a few of us didn't know him personally. Still, he was our principal.

Kirk also said: "Spock, these cadets of yours, how good are they? How will they respond under real pressure?" Whether or not he knew them all personally, if he was an Academy commandant, you'd think he'd be at least passingly familiar with generally how "good" his fourth-year class is.

From this it seems clear that Kirk was evaluating Spock's trainees in the Kobayashi Maru and would further evaluate them on the three week training crew. It seems unlikely that the Commandant of Starfleet Academy would be in such a role. He has an entire school to run and can't be present at every test or take a three week jaunt. It's more likely he was there as a representative of Stafleet Command.

Why not? Admiral Brand conducted an investigation into the actions of four cadets in her role as Commandant in "The First Duty." Granted, that investigation was spurred by the death of a cadet, but surely other officers could have handled the matter.

Investigating the death of a student is something the commandant damn well better take on personally. You really don't see anything different between that and evaluating a training exercise?

 

[MacLeod]

KIRK: Aren't you dead? I assume you are loitering here to learn what efficiency rating I plan to give your cadets.
SPOCK: I am understandably curious.
KIRK: They destroyed the simulator room and you with it.
SPOCK: The Kobayashi Maru scenario frequently wreaks havoc with students and equipment. As I recall you took the test three times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique?
KIRK: It had the virtue of never having been tried. Oh, by the way, ...thank you for this.
SPOCK: I know of your fondness for antiques.
KIRK: 'It was the best of times, it was the worst of times' ...Message, Spock?
SPOCK: None of that I'm conscious of ...except, of course, happy birthday, ...surely the best of times.
TANNOY VOICE: Captain Spock, Captain Spock, space shuttle leaving in fifteen minutes.
KIRK: Where are you off to, now?
SPOCK: The Enterprise. I must check in before your inspection. And you?
KIRK: Home.

From this it seems clear that Kirk was evaluating Spock's trainees in the Kobayashi Maru and would further evaluate them on the three week training crew. It seems unlikely that the Commandant of Starfleet Academy would be in such a role. He has an entire school to run and can't be present at every test or take a three week jaunt. It's more likely he was there as a representative of Stafleet Command.

Wouldn't the Commandant of the Academy have at least one deputy who would fill in for the Commandant when they were on leave? If that is the case why couldn't they fill in, if the Commandant decided they would like to go on a three week inspection course?

You are of course right they can't be present at every one, but that doesn't mean they can't do at least one a year. And as it happened to be the Enterprise that was assigned to the training cruise perhaps Kirk decided that he would supervise this one.

The film gives us little indication as to what Kirk's role was at the Admiralty at that time.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I have to agree with BillJ here. My interpretation is that Kirk knew about Genesis from the beginning, and there really isn't anything in the film that indicates he doesn't, IMHO. Watch the scene again where Marcus contacts Kirk. Kirk appears to immediately know what Marcus refers to when she mentions "Genesis", and his confusion is around who was trying to take it, not what it was. He also seems fairly confident that no one has the authority to take it away from the project team. Not once does he say anything like "what's Genesis" or "what are you talking about?"

To me, it seems that if Kirk fully knew what Genesis was about--and how dangerous it was if it fell into the wrong hands--he would have dropped everything right then and there upon hearing it being taken without authorization, and treated it immediately as a priority-one alert, informing Starfleet after commandeering the Enterprise. Instead, he treated it as something he needed to discuss with Starfleet about first.

He seemed to take it fairly seriously to me.

Not to me. If he knew Genesis was a device that was capable of destroying entire planets if it fell into the wrong hands, he would have taken control of the situation immediately upon hearing someone unauthorized was taking it. Instead, he seemed to treat it as just some science project Carol was working on.

As well, he probably needed to check with Starfleet Command to ensure there wasn't a legally-issued order to confiscate Genesis.

I think once he checked in with Starfleet, he learned just what Project Genesis was really about and both he and Starfleet agreed he needed to investigate it right away.

At this point, they're already underway to Regula, and Kirk is just musing.

He seemed to be clueless and not fully aware of how potentially dangerous Genesis could be.

In his talk with Starfleet, they would have confirmed there was no such order. Kirk doesn't know about Reliant's involvement, so he's understandably curious about why Marcus would think there was such an order, and who she thought she had to give Genesis up to.

After Kirk contacted Starfleet, the issue of how much he knows about Genesis really becomes a moot issue.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. My interpretation has always been that Kirk knew full well what Genesis was from the beginning. But I suppose either interpretation is possible. (And to be fair, I did read the novelization before I ever saw the movie, so there may be something in there that flavoured my take on it.)

Agreed. To me, it seemed like he knew that Carol was working on something hush-hush called Genesis, but didn't know the full details.

Kirk also said: "Spock, these cadets of yours, how good are they? How will they respond under real pressure?" Whether or not he knew them all personally, if he was an Academy commandant, you'd think he'd be at least passingly familiar with generally how "good" his fourth-year class is.

Oh, that one's easy. As the Commandant, his responsibility is to run the entire Academy, oversee its mission & faculty, and the welfare of its entire student body (which could consist of thousands of cadets). Aside from the few truly outstanding cadets, he really wouldn't know how good particular groups of cadets are unless they were pointed out to him (or if he asked).

From this it seems clear that Kirk was evaluating Spock's trainees in the Kobayashi Maru and would further evaluate them on the three week training crew. It seems unlikely that the Commandant of Starfleet Academy would be in such a role. He has an entire school to run and can't be present at every test or take a three week jaunt. It's more likely he was there as a representative of Stafleet Command.

Why not? Admiral Brand conducted an investigation into the actions of four cadets in her role as Commandant in "The First Duty." Granted, that investigation was spurred by the death of a cadet, but surely other officers could have handled the matter.

Investigating the death of a student is something the commandant damn well better take on personally. You really don't see anything different between that and evaluating a training exercise?

I think the comparison was more to illustrate that it isn't uncommon for a Commandant to personally oversee something involving a group of cadets, be it a training exercise or something more far serious.

Wouldn't the Commandant of the Academy have at least one deputy who would fill in for the Commandant when they were on leave? If that is the case why couldn't they fill in, if the Commandant decided they would like to go on a three week inspection course?

You are of course right they can't be present at every one, but that doesn't mean they can't do at least one a year. And as it happened to be the Enterprise that was assigned to the training cruise perhaps Kirk decided that he would supervise this one.

Exactly.

The film gives us little indication as to what Kirk's role was at the Admiralty at that time.

In a real sense, that brings us to the heart of the issue. We really don't know what Kirk was doing at the time of TWOK, but apparently it enabled him to loiter around the Academy, evaluate a group of cadets, and then accompany them on a training cruise. Being the Commandant nicely explains this, with the rest being an issue of him just being an admiral (and being James T. Kirk, of course). A case could be made that Kirk just simply had way too much free time too, but the Commandant idea works as well.

 

[J.T.B.]

Actually, it was what I said to the other poster. You even repeated it below (although the context is again missing):
When I'm referring to a staff of generals (and not admirals), why would I need a citation? Do I need to have a citation that an admiralty has admirals in it?

Because that's not what you said. What you wrote, again, was: "'General staff' is a term usually applied to all army and air force generals. The term has also been used to describe all admirals within a navy too, but the terms 'the Admiralty' or 'flag officers' are more commonly used." (My emphasis.)

Those are pretty straightforward sentences to understand, so I asked for a citation. You have still provided no example of the term "general staff" being used to refer to all generals in an army or air force or all admirals in a navy.

The film gives us little indication as to what Kirk's role was at the Admiralty at that time.

Exactly. He may have been commandant of the Academy (or superintendent, both titles have been used). He may have been in charge of all Starfleet training. He may have been chief of Starfleet personnel, which would have an obvious interest in training. Any of which might be members of the Starfleet General Staff. Or he may have been operational commander of whatever formation, task group, or region to which Enterprise was assigned. Any of which could have been given cognizance over some aspect of the Genesis project based on function or area responsibility. There's really no strong basis in the movie to know what Kirks' job was, as opposed to TMP where he comes right out and says it.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Actually, it was what I said to the other poster. You even repeated it below (although the context is again missing):
When I'm referring to a staff of generals (and not admirals), why would I need a citation? Do I need to have a citation that an admiralty has admirals in it?

Because that's not what you said.

Sorry, but it was. You just took it out of context (a group of high-ranking generals) and seem very hung up on it for some reason. You really should let it go, though.

 

[J.T.B.]

Sorry, but it was. You just took it out of context (a group of high-ranking generals) and seem very hung up on it. You really should let it go, though.

Then please explain how context changes the meaning of the sentences you wrote. What you wrote, yet again, said that "general staff" referred "all generals in an army or air force" or "all admirals within a navy." How does "all" not mean all?

And I don't give a shit whether you think I should let it go or not. You said that I was wrong and continue to say I'm wrong, but yet haven't posted anything to support your claim.