Was Riker insubordinate during "Chain of Command"?

[Mojochi]

Really? I mean sure, it's sarcasm, but I hadn't really thought it was crossing any lines, but I apologize to everyone & @Arpy , & I'll scale that back, & maybe chat with you in PM about it, if you're willing, because I'm a bit surprised you think so.

 

[Arpy]

Stating her opinion is well within her right. Making a vague comment about the captain's competency, that can be taken 2 different ways, in a crisis & tense time, could recklessly taint attitudes.
I admit it's a departure for TNG, but a reasonable one. IMHO the intent was ambiguity, for a change, blurring the lines, & it's not an entirely alien dynamic for them... rare, but it has come up, our heroes not always being right about everything. That's why it's a favorite of mine, inviting us to challenge our rose colored interpretation of the leads. To not do that misses the whole point, & I could imagine that would leave someone thinking the episode made no sense.
Calling him fraud & jerk doesn't sound unbiased imho. That you accuse me of bias toward her is certainly tainted if you have bias toward him. It's a matter of two characters discussed in one context, making it not an entirely separate point
See? I'd say this is 1 of the few times, that this guest character, for an intriguing change, is not meant to be the baddie. He's on our side, same interests, following the same guidelines, unlike a Pressman or Maxwell, who are definitively out of line. Jellico is by all metrics not out of line, doing exactly what everyone expects of him, except the hastily prepared crew he's dumped on. He's the expert captain in good standing... the one fully briefed. They're having to play catchup.That's not what she said at all, nothing nearly that specific, & how would she know exactly how legitimate his calls are anyhow? Her only insight is into the man's emotional state, & not a full telepath, privy to his every nuanced thought. At best, she'd only probably know he's uncomfortable feeling about the brinkmanship he must play, & not showing it... That's the nature of brinkmanship. You don't show it, but if you're not uncomfortable about it, you're a psychopath. So of course he is.

Plus, I'd politely encourage you to rewatch the Jellico scenes, if you think he's flying by the seat of his pants. He's shown as 1 of the most prepared, and determined Starfleet officers ever depicted imho. He's got every move sketched out ahead of time. He's not only the new captain, he's the mission specific specialist, yet nobody wants to afford him the benefit of the doubt about that.
The reason for all the changes that strained everyone, were TO prepare the ship for a war, that he'd thought might be unavoidable. The Minos Korva thing was a variable that came later.
Yeah, see... Jellico isn't in a pissing match... because he's in charge. The guy doing all the pissing the whole time, is the other guy
I think Cox played that there's an ambiguity about the man that could be taken that way without it necessarily being true, because it may be more due to the circumstance than the man himself. It's a gray area the show is presenting. He also has pictures of his kid's elephant drawings kicking around. He functions exceptionally well with his senior officers, once Data & Geordi are the principal players, instead of the pissing match guy
Well, she only told Riker, & yes, I take issue with him on multiple points, among which we can add him not pressing her for some critical clarification of wtf she meant

That said, she too holds responsibility on that ship for the things she says in a mission context, and how she says them & the impact they will have, & there was nothing expertly communicated about that comment
I'd certainly agree that Riker is entirely responsible for his own actions. All I'm saying is the lady has a role on that ship, that role, advising, & vague advising can lead to this very kind of outcome.
Jellico offers Riker the opportunity to air out their differences so to move past them, because their last exchange was conflictual, & Riker knows that. He's not being helpful by avoiding that issue. He's being glib. Dropping ranks is for the benefit of the subordinate. Jellico doesn't need to drop them to tell Riker what he thinks. It's a courtesy.
Because Jellico doesn't know that about him & he'd not want to force someone to participate halfheartedly in such a sensitive task. Besides.. it's an opportunity to offer the man the chance he should be begging to have, to volunteer, seeing as how he was so adamant about doing something, that he got his butt relieved. Riker ought to be chomping at the bit to make something work out here. His mentor's life is on the line, while he rots in his quarters, apparently sulking & preening. You couldn't have stopped me from beating down Jellico's door to fly that mission. Old Will would rather wait to rub the boss's nose in his farts
"Would you please, if it isn't any inconvenience to you, help me save your mentor's life, & potentially prevent a war that could cost countless millions of lives. After all, I wouldn't want to get on your bad side, by actually expecting you to happily & dutifully adhere to the chain. of. command."

Does that work for you?

You're engaging in more than what this discussion needs to be, and it's a beautiful Sunday out here today. I'm making a command decision for myself and saying, have a nice one.

 

[Prax]

Beautiful. There's already snow on the ground, it's already below freezing. Autumn needs to get back here immediately.

 

[Vger23]

People seem to forget the question.

The question isn't "Is Jellico a big dick?"

The question is "Was Riker insubordinate?"

Answering "yes" to the first question has no bearing on the answer to the second question. Having a dick boss or CO is not an excuse for insubordination.

It's not even a debate. It's black-and-white. Regardless of anyone's personal affinity for Riker and dislike for Jellico.

 

[Mysterion]

People seem to forget the question.

The question isn't "Is Jellico a big dick?"

The question is "Was Riker insubordinate?"

Answering "yes" to the first question has no bearing on the answer to the second question. Having a dick boss or CO is not an excuse for insubordination.

It's not even a debate. It's black-and-white. Regardless of anyone's personal affinity for Riker and dislike for Jellico.

This completely. Not Starfleet, the Enterprise, nor even Jellico are there for Riker's "joy" (which he comments during the episode that Jellico has somehow ruined) or entertainment. It's his damned JOB. And, guess what sometimes your job sucks. Always has, and probably still will from time to time even in the 24th and a half century. That means that even little Willie Riker is gonna have to just suck it up sometimes.

 

[Gabriel]

People seem to forget the question.

The question isn't "Is Jellico a big dick?"

The question is "Was Riker insubordinate?"

Answering "yes" to the first question has no bearing on the answer to the second question. Having a dick boss or CO is not an excuse for insubordination.

It's not even a debate. It's black-and-white. Regardless of anyone's personal affinity for Riker and dislike for Jellico.

I mean I wouldn’t have drinks with jellico but I would definitely serve under him. It wouldn’t always be pleasant but then again neither is life.
Because if it were true they would be a lot more insubordination in navies All around the world.
During this discussion I thought of this saying (although I’m sure it’s not word for word):
Being a good person and being a good leader do not go hand-in-hand
Bad people can make good leaders
And good people can make bad leaders
( ask. I am not saying he was a bad person)

 

[Gabriel]

Beautiful. There's already snow on the ground, it's already below freezing. Autumn needs to get back here immediately.

I know what you mean I’m in Texas right now we’re going to Texas bipolar weather. Cool one day freezing cold the next

 

[apothecary]

Not a fan of Riker's behaviour in this one. I think of how Data schooled Worf on the job of second in command. Riker could have learned a thing or two.

 

[Marsden]

If Jelico just brought his own XO, what was his name, Clarence Bodecker, I think, then Riker could have been permanently demoted to Lt JG in astrophysics.

 

[MikeH92467]

My Dad once told me that German soldiers rated their generals 1 of 4 ways:
1) Brilliant and energetic
2) Brilliant and lazy
3) Stupid and lazy
4) Stupid and energetic.
My take is that Jellico falls in category 1. Your mileage may vary.
Anyway, you notice that in none of the 4 includes "likability". Just sayin'

 

[Ghrakh]

My take is that Jellico falls in category 1.

Yeah, well so would Goebbels. Just sayin'

 

[Lance]

Yes, he was subordinate.

The black and white of it was he was subordinate.

But the flip side is: he's taken a Picard-esque view. You know, "I'm standing for what the Federation should stand for", kind of thing. Especially after Starfleet apparently abandons Picard.

Also on only a ship-wide level, he's fulfiling his function as personnel manager and going to bat for the crew in light of Jellico's, seemingly difficult to meet, demands upon them.

It's a matter of perspective.

But undeniably, he's being subordinate to the chain of command.

I guess it's just a question of how much that's a bad thing.

Ultimately I do feel Jellico has every right to demand whatever he wants and expect it to be followed, within reason, especially after the outcome is a good one.

 

[Lance]

Another thought: how do you think revelations about what happened on Pegasus cloud Will's opinion here?

Back then as a wet behind the ears Ensign, he blindly protected his Captain from what he percieved were mutineers, only later to learn that it was all over something illegal, and that the muntineers were trying to stop it.

There's an inference this incident was Riker's first advancement up the pole of command, thanks to Captain Pressmen's recommendation. But at the cost of keeping a secret.

When Jellico comes aboard, here we have another situation with grey areas of morality, and a Captain keeping his motivation to himself.

If Rikey has a bit of a PTSD attack back to events all those years before, and the (after all) secret he's still hiding at this point, it's wholly possible this too is a motivation to basically tell Jellico to shove it.

 

[Noname Given]

Another thought: how do you think revelations about what happened on Pegasus cloud Will's opinion here?

Back then as a wet behind the ears Ensign, he blindly protected his Captain from what he percieved were mutineers, only later to learn that it was all over something illegal, and that the muntineers were trying to stop it.

There's an inference this incident was Riker's first advancement up the pole of command, thanks to Captain Pressmen's recommendation. But at the cost of keeping a secret.

When Jellico comes aboard, here we have another situation with grey areas of morality, and a Captain keeping his motivation to himself.

If Rikey has a bit of a PTSD attack back to events all those years before, and the (after all) secret he's still hiding at this point, it's wholly possible this too is a motivation to basically tell Jellico to shove it.

IRL the TNG episode "The Pegasus" wasn't written/produced. So that Riker backstory didn't exist... Just saying...

 

[Mojochi]

Another thought: how do you think revelations about what happened on Pegasus cloud Will's opinion here?

Retroactively? The writers may not have planned out anything like that, but as a personal explanation of his overall character? My opinion, & it really is just that, is that damn near everything about Riker's character is retconned by the Pegasus mutiny. It's the bomb that explodes near the end of the show, that rewrites his entire story.

It explains why he's a dick to his Lower Decks junior officers that remind him of himself, why he's a dick to himself via his clone in Second Chances, possibly why he never really lets up on Ro Laren, until after the awkwardness of the amnesia sex. It is a good explanation for why he goes wonky with Jellico, but it also explains why he can't reason well at all, any time Picard's life hangs in the balance, because Picard might be the only commander he has proved he can implicitly trust

It's possibly why his career catapulted to potentially being the youngest captain in Starfleet, despite us only ever hearing about the one distinguishing act on Nervala IV. It might explain WHY he was so gung ho back then, to distinguish himself by putting himself in dangerous situations to save lives. It also says a lot that he turned down being captain 3 times, because he might feel he is either unready or undeserving of such a post, as most of his advancement can be attributed to Pressman's recommendation.

It even kind of explains why in an otherwise meteoric rise, he spends enough time on Betazed to fall in love with Deanna, shortly after the Pegasus, because Pressman would've wanted to sequester the survivors, & let the heat die down after the court martial inquiry.

If you really dissect it, Pressman isn't wrong about one thing he said. He really did make Will's career, & even shaped his life & perspective as well, that last point being something Pressman himself commented on, when Will stood his ground in that episode. Everything he stands for now, is in direct correlation to that ugly incident & corrupt realtionship, & like it or not, his whole life trajectory was altered by it, to the point that if it hadn't happened, he might never even have fallen in love with his future wife, let alone risen to be Picard's 1st officer

 

[Lance]

Retroactively? The writers may not have planned out anything like that, but as a personal explanation of his overall character? My opinion, & it really is just that, is that damn near everything about Riker's character is retconned by the Pegasus mutiny. It's the bomb that explodes near the end of the show, that rewrites his entire story.

It explains why he's a dick to his Lower Decks junior officers that remind him of himself, why he's a dick to himself via his clone in Second Chances, possibly why he never really lets up on Ro Laren, until after the awkwardness of the amnesia sex. It is a good explanation for why he goes wonky with Jellico, but it also explains why he can't reason well at all, any time Picard's life hangs in the balance, because Picard might be the only commander he has proved he can implicitly trust

It's possibly why his career catapulted to potentially being the youngest captain in Starfleet, despite us only ever hearing about the one distinguishing act on Nervala IV. It might explain WHY he was so gung ho back then, to distinguish himself by putting himself in dangerous situations to save lives. It also says a lot that he turned down being captain 3 times, because he might feel he is either unready or undeserving of such a post, as most of his advancement can be attributed to Pressman's recommendation.

It even kind of explains why in an otherwise meteoric rise, he spends enough time on Betazed to fall in love with Deanna, shortly after the Pegasus, because Pressman would've wanted to sequester the survivors, & let the heat die down after the court martial inquiry.

If you really dissect it, Pressman isn't wrong about one thing he said. He really did make Will's career, & even shaped his life & perspective as well, that last point being something Pressman himself commented on, when Will stood his ground in that episode. Everything he stands for now, is in direct correlation to that ugly incident & corrupt realtionship, & like it or not, his whole life trajectory was altered by it, to the point that if it hadn't happened, he might never even have fallen in love with his future wife, let alone risen to be Picard's 1st officer

I like this a lot. It makes the Pegasus incident into Riker's personal equivalent of Picard's fight with the Naussicans: something he deeply regrets, but which ultimately drove him towards becoming who he is.

 

[Mojochi]

I like this a lot. It makes the Pegasus incident into Riker's personal equivalent of Picard's fight with the Naussicans: something he deeply regrets, but which ultimately drove him towards becoming who he is.

Exactly. In fact, instead of having an episode like Tapestry which shows us what Picard's life might have been like without that influence, in Will's case, we have a living breathing embodiment in Tom Riker, that shows us what Will's life could've been like, had he gotten robbed of his ability to bounce back from that completely. Tom never really got out from under the shadow of Pressman. It was Nevala IV that primarily fast-tracked Will into command & set him on his path to making peace with himself, & it was Will, not Tom, who because of that rank, got the chance to make amends for the Pressman stuff, in the end. All Tom got was outed

You made a mistake twelve years ago... but your service since that time has earned you a great deal of respect... This incident may cost you some of that respect...

That quote from Picard takes on a whole new darker slant, when you consider that it also applies to Tom... who's out there in Starfleet at that time, trying to make his way, after being stranded for 8 years, & who got robbed of the chance to earn that "Great deal of respect" that Will did earn.