I can think of zero times this happened.
Was Kes a Good Character?
- Thread starter hux
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I can think of zero times this happened.
This might be in reference to some scenes where she was wearing shorts and a tank top. I'd hardly call them 'undies'. I seem to recall a scene where she was wearing a nightgown but there was a similar one with Janeway early on in the series.
That's right. Forget about that.
Not true.
Lien didn't know anything about "being out" until very late.
As for the character,there were a lot they could do, otherwise they hadn't come up with excellent Kes stories up till the end of season 3. Compare that to Kim and Neelix who had almost nothing when it comes to stories in season 3.
As for Beltran, I remember him sayng that in his opinion, Lien was a better actress than Ryan and he wished that Lien had stayed. I think that the comment was on his website some years ago.
"Oversimplified." Not at all.
"Nope." Oh yes, it was like this. Otherwise they would have put Ryan in a Starfleet uniform from the start.
Yes, because including more women in a story must mean you're focusing it on sex. There's no other possibility, right?
As much as I might be loathe to contradict a fellow Kes and Jennifer Lien admirer, I don't think there's any real substantiation to back up the contention that "sexing up the show" was the reason for Jeri Ryan's introduction. It would be foolish to deny that such speculation would be hard to deny on the face of it, given Ms. Ryan's great beauty, but while I admit I haven't watched or listened to all the subsequent interviews with Braga or Berman, my understanding is that adding even the surface impression of sexuality, wasn't at all the driver in making the decision to bring in another character.
Ratings were certainly not what were hoped for and I don't believe there was warranted rationale emerging during the third season that there would be a turnaround with the way the show was then constituted. Of course, as the flagship production of the network, there must have always been great pressure to take steps to raise the profile of the show and, consequently, the network. So, it had to be clear that the cavalry needed to be called in to the rescue.
Who would the show runners consider the cavalry to be in this instance? A blonde goddess? No. Naturally, it was the Borg. I think the audience cohort that was sought to enhance the ratings, the one that has so often been typified as horny young guys, may very well, in fact, have materially included that age demographic, but was primarily seen as anyone, especially viewers familiar with the Borg from TNG, who might be enticed back to Voyager if this menace was introduced as an integral part of the show going forward. I will again plead ignorance on likely familiar knowledge of the backstory of if and when the Borg may have been planned to be brought into the show from the outset anyway. I would have to think that Voyager being set in the Delta Quadrant, they were going to be introduced at some point. Maybe the midway point of the show's ostensible run was around when it had been conceived to occur regardless, or that it was planned to be held off until later in the run, the last two years perhaps, so as not to overuse them.
But in any case, circumstances seemed to force the hands of the TPTB to make the change when they did. I have read that it wasn't set in stone that the Borg to come aboard would necessarily have been a female. Maybe in reality. there was no substance to this, but I certainly have seen references to Nigel Havers being considered for the role at some point. The fact that the ultimate decision was for such a striking woman, I would assume was seen as an additional plus, but wasn't the raison d'etre for the move in the first place.
Given this scenario, an argument that any of the existing female characters just weren't delivering in the sex appeal department, might sound eminently persuasive, but in reality likely played no conscious part in anyone's thinking. Taking this strand further, I think it bears pointing out that Ryan wasn't sought out to replace Lien. or anyone else for that matter. I believe what I've very frequently heard, that the higher-ups were simply not going to pay for a 10th regular cast member. I won't follow that that up by saying, nothing more, nothing less as an addendum, because it is possible that there was also negative consideration of the show being perceived as too female oriented, as well as the additional difficulty in writing scripts that would warrant the inclusion of so many regulars. But ultimately, I think that Lien was the one that got the short straw, because of some supposed press buzz, for the candidate that was going to walk the plank, that lasted as long as it took for the endorser's next edition to hit the newsstands.
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Yes, indeed ... thank you.
A thoughtful post - unexpectedly complete and thorough - not to mention very persuasive.
She was a good character.
A few years ago I would have said no. However, I rewatched Voyager a few months ago and for the first time ever I really paid attention to Kes and I started to appreciate her and Jennifer's acting abilities much more than before. She really was doing a superb job. She delivered. It is another discussion entirely, if she was given the best possible material to work with, but overall she was good. And there was still some growing potential for Kes' character after the third season.
And yes, the romance with Neelix... IMHO, that didn't really do any favors for either character. Kes shined with Tuvok and the Doctor.
A few years ago I would have said no. However, I rewatched Voyager a few months ago and for the first time ever I really paid attention to Kes and I started to appreciate her and Jennifer's acting abilities much more than before. She really was doing a superb job. She delivered. It is another discussion entirely, if she was given the best possible material to work with, but overall she was good. And there was still some growing potential for Kes' character after the third season.
And yes, the romance with Neelix... IMHO, that didn't really do any favors for either character. Kes shined with Tuvok and the Doctor.
Lien was a very good actress. Warlord was a lot of fun to watch (not just because of the lesbianism... OK ,mostly because of the lesbianism). That kind of Kes was someone I would have liked to have seen a whole lot more of. I don't mean being an evil tyrant; I mean the way she's confident, assertive and opinionated.
The same could be said for Kim and Neelix. I liked them both much more when they had episodes that allowed them to be more aggressive and opinionated. Green and innocent is only watchable for a short period.
The same could be said for Kim and Neelix. I liked them both much more when they had episodes that allowed them to be more aggressive and opinionated. Green and innocent is only watchable for a short period.
I agree completely that Kes had an inner strength ... in her own way, she was a survivor.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who noticed the parallels. Kes also has a lot in common with Bella Swan. A character with super-special abilities with no logical limits, who the entire crew instantly loves, a good character does not make.
Harry Kim was exactly that, but he did it while still being flawed and imperfect, without deus ex machina powers, and actually having to work to get other characters to respect him.
I agree on everything else though, and Kes could certainly have been a great character if written properly and given flaws.
Did you even watch the show after Kes left? Riley was assimilated as an adult, and fully understood what it meant to be human. Plus she was a villain.
On paper Kes had potential to have all kinds of interesting. Her backstory set up for all kinds of flaws and struggles.
She should have been sheltered and naive to a fault. Her curiosity should have gotten herself and the crew in mortal danger. She should have been aggravated to only have nine years to explore her powers. She should have had some weaknesses to come with those powers (a short attention span, maybe). She should have had a loose grip on her powers, and her sanity. "Fury" should have been an entire story arc, not just one episode. She should have been alien, with beliefs and habits that weirded out the human men who were initially attracted to her.
But instead, they wrote her as a near-flawless character. She had superhuman intelligence, was oh so mature and kind and determined, so beautiful men fought over her, anyone who doubted her ability to do anything had to be proven wrong, and of course, she had such mysterious magical powers. There is a phrase for such a character, and it's often applied to the likes of Wesley Crusher and Bella Swan.
So ironically, I dislike Kes, yet very often utilize her when writing fanfiction, because there was all this potential that was never used.
She should have been sheltered and naive to a fault. Her curiosity should have gotten herself and the crew in mortal danger. She should have been aggravated to only have nine years to explore her powers. She should have had some weaknesses to come with those powers (a short attention span, maybe). She should have had a loose grip on her powers, and her sanity. "Fury" should have been an entire story arc, not just one episode. She should have been alien, with beliefs and habits that weirded out the human men who were initially attracted to her.
But instead, they wrote her as a near-flawless character. She had superhuman intelligence, was oh so mature and kind and determined, so beautiful men fought over her, anyone who doubted her ability to do anything had to be proven wrong, and of course, she had such mysterious magical powers. There is a phrase for such a character, and it's often applied to the likes of Wesley Crusher and Bella Swan.
So ironically, I dislike Kes, yet very often utilize her when writing fanfiction, because there was all this potential that was never used.
Her powers, as actually portrayed, were pretty limited, except for a few episodes during the course of her tenure on the show, most notably I guess Cold Fire and Warlord (the latter which can be discounted because of who actually made them so) and at the very end, The Gift, basically, when they were excessively pumped up to justify her needing to depart, Fury just being a continuation of that thread. I would need to give it a bit of thought, but at the least, a sizable majority of episodes that she was featured prominently in did not feature any display of her psionic powers at all. So to suggest that at any time, until The Gift, her abilities were anywhere near verging on omnipotence is just not an accurate rendition of the facts.
Basically, again what I state above as to her actually being shown with abilities with no limits, logical or otherwise. As to everyone having an intense and immediate fondness for her, I don't see the foundation for that. Kes is seen significantly interacting with a relatively few number of crew personnel throughout her stay. While I do think you can say that all the main characters' opinion of Kes were unequivocally expressed, save B'Elanna and maybe Chakotay, there really weren't any incidents I can recall, other than her birthday party on Before and After, where there was shown any overt display of widespread affection for her. In saying hello to crew in passing, I would say that people seemed pleased to see her, but that's about it. On the other hand, I would have no doubt that she would be perceived that way, because of her innate kindness and empathy, but I just don't see that can be claimed by actual evidence.
As above, although naturally more so since you're expressing a wide range of aspects that you attribute to her character, I think you're way way off the mark. I think that you're missing the essence of what she was, whether written or intended that way or not, from the first time we encountered her. I think it's clear that she was an outlier among the Ocampa from the beginning. There may have been others who harbored similar thoughts of aspiration to know and experience life beyond their entombed confines, but to our knowledge, none had the determination and courage to actually effect realizing such an ambition except Kes (I will exclude Suspiria's coterie as we don't know the circumstances by which they came to accompany her). This distinction also marked her in the realm of having a seemingly preternatural wisdom, a singular intellect (though one might leaven that description because of her eidetic memory), an ability to recognize the emotional truth of situations she encountered, a strength of will and a conviction to see it through, and a striking gift of empathy. Again, we don't know if at least some of these traits weren't shared by other Ocampans, but it would seem pretty clear that there weren't likely many that possessed all of them.
For you to claim that by all rights she definitely should have had inherent weaknesses to counterbalance these characteristics, is a mere supposition or wish, though one that in all honesty is more than usually seen, and indeed expected, as a main dramatic tenet of an individual with such an abundance of gifts.
I warrant that while there a few occasions that Kes does take missteps, as in her naivete regarding Paris's feelings for her, her initial awestruck regard for Tanis and his intentions, and perhaps her emotional communication to Janeway regarding Tuvix's request for help, which effectively served as the coup de grace for his fate, she rarely was shown to be in the wrong in the application of her talents. That this again does run counter to the traditional precepts of how drama dictates a protagonist, let alone an exceptional one, should be constituted, I think can be mitigated by a couple of factors.
First, as drawn, Kes had no malign, oversized, or exaggerated designs as to what she wanted to do in life. She had no desire to subsume or acquire power aboard Voyager or anywhere else for that matter. Essentially, I think she wanted to simply be true to herself in wanting to drink in as much learning about the universe as possible for the sake of learning itself, to be of service to others, and to discover if the legends of the psionic abilities of her people were valid and could be shown as such in what she could personally manifest. Secondly, and I think more tellingly, I believe that, perhaps remarkably for a secondary character, let alone one whose arc was so poorly followed up on by TPTB, Kes truly exemplified the ethos of what, I feel at least, Star Trek exemplified from the beginning. An irrepressible quest to continually expand the bounds of knowledge, the determined strength to carry out that imperative regardless of the obstacles, however imposing, that might impede that goal, a desire, perhaps not wholly realized, to accept unreservedly the diversity that the universe has to offer and respond to it on its own terms, and the self-awareness that despite whatever strengths might be accrued, either individually or corporately through this journey, the cardinal significance of keeping the scope of self-importance and exaltation in perspective and not letting hubris and cant lay hold of one's ambitions or an acknowledgement of kinship with others. This is my apprehension of what Kes represents (and coincidentally feel that makes the wish by some to have her be an evil character if only in turns is one that I don't find supportable), one which I know is not likely to be perceived and shared by many others, even individuals that do hold a special care for the character. But as it is something i strongly feel, and think could also be arrived as a conclusion by others, if surface impressions can be thoughtfully looked past, I'm only too willing to give Kes an exemption as to the requirement for her to hew to the regular conventions that might commonly be demanded from such a character.
As to some of the other things you find objectionable about her portrayal, well I don't find them supported by the evidence that we actually witness. She is an alien, certainly to the extent that the vast majority of aliens in the Voyager canon, if not Trek generally, are portrayed, to wit, as humanoids with slight apparent differences from Terrans. She accepted the limitations of her species life span with the simple eloquence that she would do her best to pursue her goals in the time naturally allotted her.
I don't know where you get the impression that a bevy of men were vying for her affections. I only know of two aboard Voyager and one she encountered otherwise. So, aside from the paucity of suitors, I also certainly don't see the rationale for any of them, regardless of species, or anyone that she came to know in general for that matter, to have occasion to be weirded out by her at all. I also don't recall any revisionary arguments needed to be supplied in support of her by those who thought ill of her or doubted her abilities, except maybe Tuvok initially in the second instance, and then were refuted as false, for the simple reason that such incidences never occurred to the best of my memory.
As to those powers, well I've already spoken to that issue, but would only comment further that IMO, they only added to the allure and mystery of Kes, again even though they were almost always shown within reasonable, not fantastical bounds, except to serve as the conceit for her exit from the show.
Drone, you have taken the typing right out of my keyboard! There's this prevailing attitude, it seems, that for female characters being 'hard' is being strong. Kes' strength of character demonstrated otherwise.
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