Was Kes a Good Character?

[Drone]

Uh, not quite. What justification do you have for claiming that she had any limitations in what she was seeing and hearing?

Pay more attention.

Non-responsive.

Kes: I don't know. I feel malevolence, a cold hatred. The weak will perish. It's an invasion. They intend on destroying everything.

She takes the revenge hyperbole they are directing at the Borg (for their unprovoked attack) and she interprets it to be a threat to the entire galaxy and its inhabitants. At this point, species 8472 have no real understanding of the Galaxy they're attacking since they've never been there before. Taking this misinterpretation, she then influences Janeway.

Um no. They may be powerful but their aggression is justified as they have just been attacked in their own realm. Kes does not have the full context of what she is sensing and she is not in a position to adequately comprehend the basis for it. Janeway has even less justification for taking this child's interpretations seriously. [/QUOTE]

Perhaps you would like to think that their threat is limited to the Borg, but if so why are they even communicating to Kes? They are doing enough to wipe out the initial aggressor without any problems. What purpose is served in sending a message to Kes? Oh, they just happen to know that she has a lot of pull with Janeway and forwarding existential warnings is going to influence Kes to have Janeway stand down? Huh? The bottom line is that you have no valid basis to claim that what Kes is relating isn't exactly what the Undine intend and being sent to exactly who they intend the recipient to be. Just as you're pulling out of somewhere, the apparent knowledge that they have never been outside their realm before. Beyond all of these points, the plain fact of the matter is that what Kes is saying has no impact at all on the plan to attack the Undine, as it already existed.. The influence that you are taking such lengths in proving is illusory, Kes isn't instigating any action, she merely is elaborating on the threat that the Undine ultimately represent through their own deliberately transmitted thoughts.

[/QUOTE]Throughout the series? What? I'm gonna just keep repeating myself until it makes a glorious impact. She does not have an adequate grasp of the things she is sensing (her powers demonstrably being something she doesn't fully have control or comprehension of... see Cold fire, The gift). It is out of context. She might not be guilty of failing to take that into consideration but Janeway certainly is.[/QUOTE]

The Gift hasn't happened yet and the loss of control inherent there is a simple conceit to make it imperative that she leave the ship, and the show. As regards Cold Fire, we don't actually know what degree of what she was able to accomplish at that time was her own actions or a manipulation by Tanis. As far as Janeway's fault you are asserting, again it's the same straw man "argument" that you can't, or more likely just won't, give up. What exactly is the influence that Kes renders that helps Janeway forge her strategic decisions at the time that she is actually making them? You can repeat the same plot points and quote dialogue to your heart's content, but your concomitant silence on when those sequences actually take place and in what context, only goes to show that you like hearing yourself talk. Let me also elaborate on the line above that seems unintelligible to you. What I'd like you to do is list all of the instances that Kes's perceptions and clarity of thought is resoundingly proven unequivocally incorrect, in the actual context of when it happened throughout the series. As I said, it certainly did happen, but for someone that is still a child when she leaves the show by your accounting, the occurrences were damn infrequent. But go ahead, knock yourself out.

[/QUOTE]Nope. Try watching the episodes again, you clearly missed a great deal. Species 8472 believe the Federation is planning an attack. They know so little about this "galaxy" that they supposedly want to destroy that they actually believe the Federation is all around them and an attack is imminent. They don't even understand that the Federation is thousands of light-years away. Additionally, their putative melovelance and desire to destroy the galaxy is actually.... .... a reconnaissance mission. Nothing more. Hardly the stuff of molevalent galaxy destroyers.[/QUOTE]

They don't know the galaxy and yet they can exactly recreate Starfleet Headquarters. So they've taken that information from Voyager's computer and yet don't know with that direct confirmation where Earth is or the layout of the rest of the galaxy for that matter. Hmm, sounds like you're really shortchanging the Undine with a lack of level of comprehension that defies credulity. They knew exactly where their enemy's home was located and with the number of ships they possess, there's no reason to think that they couldn't have easily discerned if any other Starfleet ships other than Voyager were anywhere in the vicinity. Yes, the Borg had been their enemy, but since they clearly demonstrated a total inability to withstand the Undine's depredations, the latter is now focused on the entity that can. I won't claim that it's impossible to believe that Archer isn't stating the nominal intention of this mission, though she is clearly an underling. But I would point out that the scale of the infiltration is massive, twelve biosphere ships going through the same training. That would reasonably suggest that what they are planning is likely conceived to have the ability to carry out any ultimate objective as it's judged warranted by what they discover. And what will they discover? A force structure that is huge in scope and has the same belief systems as the one representative that they actually had encountered. So a power that showed no compunction in using deadly force against them and the Undine have infested its corridors of command and control. I won't venture out into the realm of pure speculation, but that scenario not ending in devastating confrontation would not be wholly implausible.

So once again, we go back to the old saw about the confused child and her culpability. Well. she clearly wasn't a child, by any standards, and was almost certainly the most centered member of the crew, save Tuvok. You may want to consider substituting actual events as portrayed, for dubious suppositions and uh. bias. Perhaps your watching the episodes again might be of assistance, but only with an unjaundiced eye, if that's possible.

Durrp. Nope. I think one ought to consider ones own desire not to tarnish the reputation of ones favourite character for one is stretching. Clearly the bias is with you; perhaps greater self-awareness is something to pursue. "In the flesh" exists. Interpreting away the consequences of what it shows us or just plainly ignoring them... won't do. I understand the complexity of the average Voyager episode may bamboozle the more gentle mind but they're really not that hard to get to grips with if you put the effort in. I'm sure you have the capacity to do so with the right encouragement and attitude. I'm here to assist you in that endeavour. Embracing the crappy episodes that contradict other episodes and make characters you love, look like idiots is all part of the Trek experience. We've all been there. You're not alone. You're among friends.

Again, as stated above, I'm well aware of the follow-up episode and what it actually states and suggests. If one's naivete demands that meanings made out of whole cloth are substituted for what is really depicted, well that's an individual choice that seems to speak more to supporting an agenda that one's predisposed to prove. Yes, it's possible that the Undine were effectively neutered as an implacable enemy by Janeway's words. That impression would seem to be reinforced as they were never seen again. But that development didn't happen until the very end of the episode and as in a number of other episodes, basically came out of nowhere and was certainly not prefigured by what we saw and were told throughout. If you care to say that the depiction from the get go led to that closing act, well that points to self-delusion. Perhaps you should watch these episodes again. I seriously doubt you have seen them more frequently than I have, but if it helps to soothe your dudgeon, I'm willing to split it down the middle. You've soon them more often, but you just don't remember them very well. There, feel better?

I do admire the character of Kes, although as I've stated previously, I think the degree to which the depiction is exceptional is owing to the quality of the actor that portrayed her, not any coherent effort on the part of the showrunners. Nonetheless, I don't incessantly inject discussing her in threads that have nothing to do with her. In fact, from what i've observed, I think that on a strictly numerical basis you make more comments about her than I do. Further, there's no need for her to have a champion as you seem to suggest is a role that I've adopted. It does give me satisfaction that as time goes on, more people seem to be reflecting a bit more beneath the surface impressions that heretofore were an easy means of expressing apparently convicted judgements. If a smaller cohort continues to cling to a less thoughtful vision that leads them to express rather puerile views of the character, so be it. I'm only too willing to discuss my stated views on a subject or character with anyone. But if that person insists on continually presenting as valid points of contention, clearly inaccurate statements as their talking points, or in your case smugly insinuated killing blows, repeatedly ignoring the reality of what was depicted to back up some tired old screed, well then the rationale for continuing the dialogue rapidly decreases.

Time and again, I have stated here that my knowledge of many things in Trek is rather limited. But that doesn't equate to a lack of understanding and representing truthfully those parts of the franchise that I happen to be familiar with. I'm quite self-aware (I know, what else am I going to say) whatever you think you mean by using that phrase. Given your apparently assured level of same, I'm kind of surprised that you find Voyager that sophisticated and hard to comprehend. It really isn't. But given what anyone can go by in what you maintain in your arguments of supposed fact, it definitely does seem that you find them complex, putting the gentlest spin on it. So, I will gladly accept as adding to my ken that information or insight that you've kindly offered when it conforms to reality. Otherwise, I'll be reconciled to let you keep your own counsel on your conception of self-awareness and delusion.

 

[Lynx]

Kes wasn't a "confused child". She knew exactly what was necessary in that situation.

 

[hux]

Perhaps you would like to think that their threat is limited to the Borg, but if so why are they even communicating to Kes?

Still not paying attention. The threat is not limited to the Borg; it is revenge hyperbole directed at them. At this point, species 8472 have no real understanding of what "our galaxy" even is. They have been attacked and are now leaving their realm for the first time with the intention of seeking revenge. Kes, the Borg, the little green man on planet 12... they are all the enemy as far as species 8472 are concerned because they are all from the galaxy that attacked them.

Beyond all of these points, the plain fact of the matter is that what Kes is saying has no impact at all on the plan to attack the Undine, as it already existed.. The influence that you are taking such lengths in proving is illusory, Kes isn't instigating any action, she merely is elaborating on the threat that the Undine ultimately represent through their own deliberately transmitted thoughts.

No, she is providing a platform on which Janeway can build her plan. This is not Kes's fault; it's entirely Janeway's.

As far as Janeway's fault you are asserting, again it's the same straw man "argument" that you can't, or more likely just won't, give up. What exactly is the influence that Kes renders that helps Janeway forge her strategic decisions at the time that she is actually making them?

Must try harder. Kes's interpretation is flawed (not her fault) and Janeway does not question the possibility that is flawed (entirely Janeway's fault).

You can repeat the same plot points and quote dialogue to your heart's content, but your concomitant silence on when those sequences actually take place and in what context, only goes to show that you like hearing yourself talk.

I can provide evidence to my hearts content but you will ignore it. Yes, we've established that about you and while I might lose interest in pawing at such gibberish, it amuses me to continue and watch you claim that "there is no evidence" followed by "that evidence isn't enough." It's the best entertainment one can hope for on here.

Let me also elaborate on the line above that seems unintelligible to you. What I'd like you to do is list all of the instances that Kes's perceptions and clarity of thought is resoundingly proven unequivocally incorrect, in the actual context of when it happened throughout the series.

Ah, because occasionally being correct means never being incorrect. You might wish to investigate that idiocy (in your free time though; not here) and once again, try harder.

They don't know the galaxy and yet they can exactly recreate Starfleet Headquarters.

Aww bless and now you're trying this.

They did not know the Galaxy after initial attack. Their encounter with Voyager and the Borg provided them with the necessary information through a Stafleet database.

This shouldn't be hard to grasp.

So they've taken that information from Voyager's computer and yet don't know with that direct confirmation where Earth is or the layout of the rest of the galaxy for that matter. Hmm, sounds like you're really shortchanging the Undine with a lack of level of comprehension that defies credulity.

They're planning to infiltrate... a people who are thousands of light years away and who they will probably never even meet. Again, use your brain and ask yourself what does that tell you about their level of intelligence regarding the Federation and Stafleet?

If you want to believe that they are lying then go nuts. But we can both play that game. Little Kes was lying about what she heard. Tut, tut... she made it all up because she's mentally ill and loves violence.

Again, as stated above, I'm well aware of the follow-up episode and what it actually states and suggests. If one's naivete demands that meanings made out of whole cloth are substituted for what is really depicted, well that's an individual choice that seems to speak more to supporting an agenda that one's predisposed to prove.

Ah, so you know better. You saw through their clever ruse and know what they're really up to? That's one possibility. The other is you're stretching for an answer (but that doesn't seem like you).

Yes, it's possible that the Undine were effectively neutered as an implacable enemy by Janeway's words. That impression would seem to be reinforced as they were never seen again. But that development didn't happen until the very end of the episode and as in a number of other episodes, basically came out of nowhere and was certainly not prefigured by what we saw and were told throughout.

Hey, I'm not arguing that "In the flesh" isn't a complete and total mess that undermines characters and entire alien races (species 8472 go from one of the most bad-ass aliens we've ever seen to a bunch of clown people who find Chakoatay sexually attractive). But the episode exists. It's there.

People attack "Threshold" and Kes fans attack "Fury" but quite frankly, the worst episode in all of Trek in my opinion is "In the flesh." Like it or not, it makes Kes and Janeway look idiotic and entirely ruins species 8472 as a species. It is just beyond awful.

But it's there.

If you care to say that the depiction from the get go led to that closing act, well that points to self-delusion. Perhaps you should watch these episodes again. I seriously doubt you have seen them more frequently than I have, but if it helps to soothe your dudgeon, I'm willing to split it down the middle. You've soon them more often, but you just don't remember them very well. There, feel better?

No. I've both seen them more often and clearly remember them far better than you do. Trust me.

I do admire the character of Kes, although as I've stated previously, I think the degree to which the depiction is exceptional is owing to the quality of the actor that portrayed her, not any coherent effort on the part of the show-runners.

You're a fan of Kes. You don't say.

If a smaller cohort continues to cling to a less thoughtful vision that leads them to express rather puerile views of the character, so be it. I'm only too willing to discuss my stated views on a subject or character with anyone. But if that person insists on continually presenting as valid points of contention, clearly inaccurate statements as their talking points, or in your case smugly insinuated killing blows, repeatedly ignoring the reality of what was depicted to back up some tired old screed, well then the rationale for continuing the dialogue rapidly decreases.

Wah, Wah, Wah, you're not agreeing with me so your being mean. I'm telling.

I've provided you with the dialogue that explains the context of Voyager's encounter with species 8472 and demonstrated that both Kes and Janeway are flawed in their interpretations and reasoning. Much of this can actually be seen in "Scorpion" but is made more and definitively explicit in " In the flesh." Simply disregarding what you see in that episode and making assumptions about species 8472's true intentions is laughable. That you don't want to see it, highlights a bias.

Given your apparently assured level of same, I'm kind of surprised that you find Voyager that sophisticated and hard to comprehend. It really isn't. But given what anyone can go by in what you maintain in your arguments of supposed fact, it definitely does seem that you find them complex, putting the gentlest spin on it. So, I will gladly accept as adding to my ken that information or insight that you've kindly offered when it conforms to reality. Otherwise, I'll be reconciled to let you keep your own counsel on your conception of self-awareness and delusion.

Did you just repeat what I said but with a silly voice? I think you did. You sophisticated wit, you.

Watch them again. And remember... it was the writers that fucked with you, not me.

Kes wasn't a "confused child". She knew exactly what was necessary in that situation.

Thank you for your objectivity.

How's the website that's dedicated to Kes that you run, going?

 

[Paradise City]

Well, the writers had this with "alliance with the borg" stuff to amaze and shock us, used Kes as the most convenient conduit to inform us of the 'no-compromise' 'all-powerful' nature of species 8472 so as to set up this "alliance with the borg". Of course some episodes later our heroes are having tense conversations with species 8472, so while 8472 are certainly a tricky lot and handy in a fist fight , 'no compromise' and all powerful, they certainly are not.

Lein's lifeless performance here is very palpably of someone who understands she's leaving and is just going through the motions. When I first watched it without knowing the backdrop to Lein's departure, it's very obvious the actress herself isn't happy.

I enjoyed the episodes. But I dislike the writer's insistence in emasculating the big villains. By constantly drafting in the borg, they still seem to be trading off the popularity of TNG BOBW in lieu of doing something truly creative.

 

[Lynx]

Kes wasn't a "confused child". She knew exactly what was necessary in that situation.

Thank you for your objectivity.

How's the website that's dedicated to Kes that you run, going?

The website works excellent!

As for my comment about the "confused child", I must point out that Kes real age was about 25-30 years at that time.

In one of your posts you state that for Species 8472, all inhabitants of the galaxy were enemies. kes did understand that and realized the threat against all living beings in the galaxy. Not some whim of some "confused child".

 

[Drone]

Perhaps you would like to think that their threat is limited to the Borg, but if so why are they even communicating to Kes?

Still not paying attention. The threat is not limited to the Borg; it is revenge hyperbole directed at them. At this point, species 8472 have no real understanding of what "our galaxy" even is. They have been attacked and are now leaving their realm for the first time with the intention of seeking revenge. Kes, the Borg, the little green man on planet 12... they are all the enemy as far as species 8472 are concerned because they are all from the galaxy that attacked them.

Beyond all of these points, the plain fact of the matter is that what Kes is saying has no impact at all on the plan to attack the Undine, as it already existed.. The influence that you are taking such lengths in proving is illusory, Kes isn't instigating any action, she merely is elaborating on the threat that the Undine ultimately represent through their own deliberately transmitted thoughts.

No, she is providing a platform on which Janeway can build her plan. This is not Kes's fault; it's entirely Janeway's.



Must try harder. Kes's interpretation is flawed (not her fault) and Janeway does not question the possibility that is flawed (entirely Janeway's fault).



I can provide evidence to my hearts content but you will ignore it. Yes, we've established that about you and while I might lose interest in pawing at such gibberish, it amuses me to continue and watch you claim that "there is no evidence" followed by "that evidence isn't enough." It's the best entertainment one can hope for on here.



Ah, because occasionally being correct means never being incorrect. You might wish to investigate that idiocy (in your free time though; not here) and once again, try harder.



Aww bless and now you're trying this.

They did not know the Galaxy after initial attack. Their encounter with Voyager and the Borg provided them with the necessary information through a Stafleet database.

This shouldn't be hard to grasp.



They're planning to infiltrate... a people who are thousands of light years away and who they will probably never even meet. Again, use your brain and ask yourself what does that tell you about their level of intelligence regarding the Federation and Stafleet?

If you want to believe that they are lying then go nuts. But we can both play that game. Little Kes was lying about what she heard. Tut, tut... she made it all up because she's mentally ill and loves violence.



Ah, so you know better. You saw through their clever ruse and know what they're really up to? That's one possibility. The other is you're stretching for an answer (but that doesn't seem like you).



Hey, I'm not arguing that "In the flesh" isn't a complete and total mess that undermines characters and entire alien races (species 8472 go from one of the most bad-ass aliens we've ever seen to a bunch of clown people who find Chakoatay sexually attractive). But the episode exists. It's there.

People attack "Threshold" and Kes fans attack "Fury" but quite frankly, the worst episode in all of Trek in my opinion is "In the flesh." Like it or not, it makes Kes and Janeway look idiotic and entirely ruins species 8472 as a species. It is just beyond awful.

But it's there.



No. I've both seen them more often and clearly remember them far better than you do. Trust me.



You're a fan of Kes. You don't say.



Wah, Wah, Wah, you're not agreeing with me so your being mean. I'm telling.

I've provided you with the dialogue that explains the context of Voyager's encounter with species 8472 and demonstrated that both Kes and Janeway are flawed in their interpretations and reasoning. Much of this can actually be seen in "Scorpion" but is made more and definitively explicit in " In the flesh." Simply disregarding what you see in that episode and making assumptions about species 8472's true intentions is laughable. That you don't want to see it, highlights a bias.

Given your apparently assured level of same, I'm kind of surprised that you find Voyager that sophisticated and hard to comprehend. It really isn't. But given what anyone can go by in what you maintain in your arguments of supposed fact, it definitely does seem that you find them complex, putting the gentlest spin on it. So, I will gladly accept as adding to my ken that information or insight that you've kindly offered when it conforms to reality. Otherwise, I'll be reconciled to let you keep your own counsel on your conception of self-awareness and delusion.

Did you just repeat what I said but with a silly voice? I think you did. You sophisticated wit, you.

Watch them again. And remember... it was the writers that fucked with you, not me.

Well, I think we've reached that proverbial agree to disagree moment. I would like to add that when I advocate a position, I want to be reconciled that I'm sure of the evidence or anecdotal detail I use to support it. In fact, my statement that the communications that Kes received, at least the ones that we have been bandying about, came after Janeway had set up the alliance with the Borg, was in error. Except for the further elaboration of the Undine's motivations that Kes states during the battle sequence inside fluidic space, the earlier warnings and descriptions that Kes uttered did happen before Janeway thought up and implemented her plan. I made a mistake here, not the first time I've done so and acknowledged it afterwards and certainly not the last.

However, this misstatement of timing doesn't change anything. There is nothing shown or that can be plausibly inferred that Kes misinterpreted anything that was communicated to her (about which,by the way your first line above, directly contradicts what you stated the day before), that those few lines of exposition had any impact on Janeway's decision to work with the Borg, or that said decision was reached by the Captain in error or miscalculation, as if it wasn't the correct one to make, which it clearly was.

That the danger to Voyager was clear and unambiguous and not subject to wholly unsupported "interpretations" can be obviously seen by the fact that the Undine first attacked Voyager, without provocation, at the Borg cube and one more elemental question. If the Undine didn't have malign intent towards Voyager and everyone else for that matter, why didn't they simply convey to Kes that they were only seeking retribution and annihilation of the Borg, the ones that had compromised the integrity of their home, and that they had no malicious designs on any other species and would return home once they completed their revenge? Would such a message be fumbled as well or simply not be sent because the Undine didn't understand the nature of the galaxy having never ventured outside their realm, yet another specious contention, or maybe, possibly because what Kes perceived just happened to be exactly correct?

So, as I've said before, I look forward to conversing again on matters where we both can stay on point and have a substantive, legitimate dialogue. In that same vein, please see if you can resist the urge, for your own benefit if no one else's, to insert the thinly veiled ad hominem attacks that are laughably transparent in their intent. Comments about my gentle spirit (nice channeling of W there), my apparent intellectual deficiencies, and general cluelessness are not going to help you achieve your desired result, but instead redound to your detriment over and over again.

If you choose to feign confusion about that last statement, I'll be happy to discuss it further in a PM. Just let me know.

Well, the writers had this with "alliance with the borg" stuff to amaze and shock us, used Kes as the most convenient conduit to inform us of the 'no-compromise' 'all-powerful' nature of species 8472 so as to set up this "alliance with the borg". Of course some episodes later our heroes are having tense conversations with species 8472, so while 8472 are certainly a tricky lot and handy in a fist fight , 'no compromise' and all powerful, they certainly are not.

Lein's lifeless performance here is very palpably of someone who understands she's leaving and is just going through the motions. When I first watched it without knowing the backdrop to Lein's departure, it's very obvious the actress herself isn't happy.

I enjoyed the episodes. But I dislike the writer's insistence in emasculating the big villains. By constantly drafting in the borg, they still seem to be trading off the popularity of TNG BOBW in lieu of doing something truly creative.

If you are referring to Part I, my understanding is that Ms. Lien was unaware of her fate in that last episode of Season 3 as the decision hadn't been definitively been reached at that time. Regardless, while I have strongly held opinions about her performance throughout the series, I do not claim to be an acting critic. Please let me know what you saw that leads you to categorize her effort as lifeless. As far as I can see, Ms. Lien was fully engaged in the process, portrayed a good intuitive sense of how Kes would react to these personal as well as categorical threats, and did a good bit in her limited time on screen to add to the pervasive sense of apprehension and uncertainty that the crew was feeling generally. So, please elaborate.

 

[Paradise City]

Her delivery on the bridge was deadpan in her communication of a mortal threat. A kind of hackneyed version of Troi divining something from the ether. I'm amused at these kind of strained efforts to turn Lein's pedestrian performance into a cosmic Katherine Hepburn delivery. A heroic effort to put this scene into a good light certainly but an effort that alas fails to convince me at least.

Lein knew her job was on the line and given that Wang got published in some high profile glam mag I'd be shocked if she didn't know she was out - particularly as the two parter was set up to introduce a new character. Lein knew herself that her character had been written into a corner....so...there you go.

 

[Drone]

Her delivery on the bridge was deadpan in her communication of a mortal threat. A kind of hackneyed version of Troi divining something from the ether. I'm amused at these kind of strained efforts to turn Lein's pedestrian performance into a cosmic Katherine Hepburn delivery. A heroic effort to put this scene into a good light certainly but an effort that alas fails to convince me at least.

Lein knew her job was on the line and given that Wang got published in some high profile glam mag I'd be shocked if she didn't know she was out - particularly as the two parter was set up to introduce a new character. Lein knew herself that her character had been written into a corner....so...there you go.

Well, I think it would be reasonable to say that there was some considerable effort Kes was expending to stay concentrated and in focus while receiving these rather significant messages. She was a very composed character generally anyway and so I wouldn't expect her to do line readings here with an uncontrolled emotional demeanor, not to say, I think, that if you look closely enough you can discern a distinct visceral response to what she was hearing.
Perhaps you would have preferred for her to scream some, but, ah, that's a whole other story.

Thanks by the way, for the props on my being heroic. I'm pretty sure no one's ever used that term to describe me around here. Double the appreciation, in fact, for your concern about my health. Nothing's too tight, everything feels just fine so I'm not feeling any strains at all. Assuming you're being serious though, I can assure that what I offered above regarding the performance was no stretch at all. IMO, all that is required to recognize at least some of those attributes is an open mind and a bit more patience to see things with a bit more subtlety than a sledgehammer. But remember, I did volunteer that I'm not an acting critic, so vive la difference I guess!!!

Oh, and as for Ms. Lien's knowledge of her departure, well there you go. As I said, and which you seem to have just ignored, as far as I'm aware the decision for her not to be renewed was not made until sometime after the end of the 3rd season, which ended with Scorpion Part I. Kim wasn't put on death's door to be miraculously revived in the Season 4 opener. The purpose of the scenario was for him to actually die as he was the first choice for elimination. While, I wouldn't exactly describe People as a glam mag, it was his appearance there that apparently influenced the show runner's to decide otherwise. I appreciate that you have the psychic abilities to know what Lien was thinking at the time, well we all want to better ourselves I suppose. While I know a damn sight more about her than you do, I don't have any idea what her perception of the future was at the end of Season 3. To suggest that she knew she had been written into a corner seems like a stretch of your own. There were 3 episodes in which she was prominently featured in, if not the actual feature actor, during a bit over the last half of that season, the final two representing a quarter of the final 8 episodes. Now one can make the case that those last two (Darkling and Before and After) could represent a foreshadowing of her departure and then a valedictory story that gave viewers a glimpse, while ultimately illusory, of what Kes could have developed into. Even more compelling for speculation perhaps is that in the 3 episodes before Scorpion, she was virtually nowhere to be seen, even to the extent of being blocked out of clear view in the crew background shots during Displaced.

It is interesting to speculate, but ultimately, from what we seem to pretty reliably know now, from different sources, including the fact that Wang's workplace attitude was often pretty sketchy, the first scenario is what is commonly accepted. By the way, the actor's name is spelled Lien, only 4 letters and not that hard to get right, unless that's part of some schtick of yours.

 

[Lynx]

Her delivery on the bridge was deadpan in her communication of a mortal threat. A kind of hackneyed version of Troi divining something from the ether. I'm amused at these kind of strained efforts to turn Lein's pedestrian performance into a cosmic Katherine Hepburn delivery. A heroic effort to put this scene into a good light certainly but an effort that alas fails to convince me at least.

Lein knew her job was on the line and given that Wang got published in some high profile glam mag I'd be shocked if she didn't know she was out - particularly as the two parter was set up to introduce a new character. Lein knew herself that her character had been written into a corner....so...there you go.

I've read and heard from several sources that she didn't know that she was going to be sacked until very late in the process. I'm sure that during the filming of "Scorpion#1" she believed that Wang was the one to go.

I don't think she knew that "Her character had been written in a corner" because it hadn't!

Instead, during season 3 it looked like Kes would be a more important character in coming seasons.

If the deliver on the bridge wasn't the best ( I think her performance was OK), then blame the writers if the plot and the dialogue was unrealistic and bland.

 

[borgboy]

I never had any problem with Lien's performances. She's a very understated actor, but that's not a bad thing. Kes was a very reserved person and she generally reacts calmly, but there's usually a suggestion of deeper waters if you're looking for it. It's ok if not everybody agrees with that opinion, we ought to able to have different opinions and interpretations of scenes and characters without it being an argument.

 

[hux]

I also don't have a problem with Lien's performance. Characters who "sense things" are in an unfortunate position because it has a tendency to look... well, silly. They're trying to convey a feeling, a thought, a state of being, whilst also portraying their own character's nature etc. It's the reason I'm not a fan of characters with powers (though I recognise the actors probably have a harder job).

Re: Kes and her interpretation of "We will purge your Galaxy." She informs the captain that species 8472 are melevolent with a cold hatred... they are the greater threat, not the Borg. Everything about that statement is shown to be inaccurate. Do we honestly believe that they intend to destroy...

• The Borg.
• The Federation.
• The Cardassians.
• The Romulans.
• The Voth.
• The Kazon.
• The Dominion.
• The Q Continuum.

Of course not. Their threat is based on limited knowledge of what that Galaxy even is. Additionally, it is based on having just been attacked without provocation. Look at how America reacted after 9/11; they wanted to attack someone. Anyone.

This is what species 8472 are experiencing. Kes doesn't have that context (which isn't her fault) but the fact that Janeway makes the decision to justify genocide based on it, is frankly unforgivable. Picard is given the opportunity to infect the Borg with a virus (an enemy they know to be relentless, emotionless, ruthless, aggressive) yet he ultimately believes that no... it cannot be justified.

Janeway takes the word of a fairly innocent, non-Stafleet individual about a species she actually knows nothing about and for the price of an unmolested trip through Borg space, believes that it is OK to help the Borg remove them from existence.

Insane!

I'll happily defend Janeway against those who say she murdered Tuvix but Scorpion for me, was when I lost confidence in her as a character. I blame the writers of course. Sometimes, I think the Voyager forum subheading should be changed from "There's coffee in this forum" to "Blame the writers."

 

[Lynx]

I'll happily defend Janeway against those who say she murdered Tuvix but Scorpion for me, was when I lost confidence in her as a character. I blame the writers of course. Sometimes, I think the Voyager forum subheading should be changed from "There's coffee in this forum" to "Blame the writers."

I can agree with this.

The writers had a great series and great characters but they managed to blow it.

 

[2takesfrakes]

My 2 cents: Kes did so much to help other characters through their little problems and whatnot, that I can't even imagine what the EMH would've been like without her guidance, for example. It was sweet how devoted she was to Janeway, following her around, like a lost puppy. Kathryn, herself, seemed to embrace her role as Kes' surrogate mom. Not everyone in VOY had to be miserable and mistrustful. Having one supporting character who was a genuinely sweet soul was a really good idea.

Unfortunately, Rick Berman and the gang were infatuated with imposing on her a ridiculously short lifespan for reasons that were never made clear to me. On the surface, I suppose, one could make a case that it made her more "alien," but ... if that's all it was, then that's lame and lackadaisical, actually. Her relationship with Neelix should've been other than what we got. She should've been allowed to use her magic to good effect much more often ... With very few modifications, Kes could've been a much more appreciated part of the show.

Jennifer Lien was stunningly beautiful and her voice is very pleasing. Unfortunately, she likes getting stoned a little too much, so, between that and the poor writing on the show, Kes was always in trouble of getting broomed under the carpet. It didn't have to be that way and that is the absolute worst about Kes. With just a little actual interest from the writing staff, Kes could've been irreplaceable on the show. But ... that's Show Biz for you: one minute you're a beautiful star ... the next you're in the rubbish heap.

 

[hux]

Having one supporting character who was a genuinely sweet soul was a really good idea.

After a while, it gets tiresome though. I suspect had she moved on from that, she would have survived in the show. Lien showed in Warlord that as an actress, she had a lot to give and more importantly, an edgier Kes was also immensely more watchable.

her voice is very pleasing.

Like warm honey trickling down the thighs of a very, very bad girl on summers day with a soft breeze.

 

[Drone]

Jennifer Lien was stunningly beautiful and her voice is very pleasing. Unfortunately, she likes getting stoned a little too much, so, between that and the poor writing on the show, Kes was always in trouble of getting broomed under the carpet. It didn't have to be that way and that is the absolute worst about Kes. With just a little actual interest from the writing staff, Kes could've been irreplaceable on the show. But ... that's Show Biz for you: one minute you're a beautiful star ... the next you're in the rubbish heap.

There's no evidence that her problems then or now for that matter, have anything to do with drugs or alcohol. Such suggestions were certainly made at the time of her departure from the show, but I think were far outweighed by either the dubious line given by the producers, questions about her own continuing interest in staying, or what has become more of the orthodox explanation for her leaving, involving Wang's extremely brief, but apparently very salutary moment in the sun. There is also anecdotal detail supplied by people who, given the accuracy of what they disclosed about her otherwise that wasn't commonly known, insist substance abuse wasn't in play.

Neither have I even heard that earlier on she was in danger of getting the sack. That would definitely apply to Wang though, given his sometimes dodgy work habits. It is true that she didn't participate in the pre-season discussions with the higher-ups to give her ideas on what might be some good ideas on where her character might reasonably be heading for the upcoming season. In fact, she seemed not to have had much dialogue with any of them at all. This reticence may very well have contributed to the overall sense of confusion or uncertainty with where to take the character, at least on the part of the producers, certainly not something one could point at as turning out to be in Lien's favor, but I'm pretty sure that I've never seen anything published or discussed by those in the know that she had been continuously on the edge or anything of the sort, until that exigency became unavoidable.

My opinion is that her unusual or eccentric behavior at times, mentioned by at least a few of her colleagues, was due to an already developing mental illness of some kind, that heretofore had been explicitly expressed by the extreme social anxiety disorder, again attested to by colleagues, that she displayed during public appearances. I can appreciate how the manifestation of that condition could be interpreted by some who witnessed these incidents as someone under the influence, but from my perspective from what I've read of these accounts, the demeanor sounds more like a difficulty in dealing with taking a prescription medication.

At any rate, I don't claim unequivocal and unquestioned knowledge that would absolutely refute your statement, at least at that time. The years intervening, and especially the last couple with the recurrence of criminal charges, I would like to view as an unmediated decline due to inadequate, failed, or refused treatment for a psychiatric illness that seems to have come into its full flower. At this point, it's not implausible that the use of illegal substances has become part of Lien's behavior in coping with her sickness. Now, such abuse may very well be exacerbating her already existentially threatening condition, but again I don't think there's really any support that it was a part of the iteration of Jennifer Lien, that at the least, was able to function superlatively in one aspect of her life, all those years ago.

 

[Lynx]

There have never been any evidence that Lien has been using drugs and definitely no evidence that she was fired for that reason.

Not even regarding her current events, there have been any mentioning of drug abuse.

The drug rumor actually started about another actor. When Lien was fired, the rumor sort of spilled over to her.

Lien was fired because those in charge wanted to "sex up" the show with a woman in a catsuit. Wang was the one chosed to go but when a silly poll in a stupid magazine showed him among "the 50 most handsome", those in charge changed their minds and fired Lien instead.

All the talk about "Kes being impossible to write for" and "the writers didn't know what to do with her" are lies. Pathetic excuses for not daring to tell the tuth, that it was all about to "sex up" the show.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

^ Which ruined Voyager for me.

 

[Paradise City]

Her delivery on the bridge was deadpan in her communication of a mortal threat. A kind of hackneyed version of Troi divining something from the ether. I'm amused at these kind of strained efforts to turn Lein's pedestrian performance into a cosmic Katherine Hepburn delivery. A heroic effort to put this scene into a good light certainly but an effort that alas fails to convince me at least.

Lein knew her job was on the line and given that Wang got published in some high profile glam mag I'd be shocked if she didn't know she was out - particularly as the two parter was set up to introduce a new character. Lein knew herself that her character had been written into a corner....so...there you go.

Well, I think it would be reasonable to say that there was some considerable effort Kes was expending to stay concentrated and in focus while receiving these rather significant messages. She was a very composed character generally anyway and so I wouldn't expect her to do line readings here with an uncontrolled emotional demeanor, not to say, I think, that if you look closely enough you can discern a distinct visceral response to what she was hearing.
Perhaps you would have preferred for her to scream some, but, ah, that's a whole other story.

Thanks by the way, for the props on my being heroic. I'm pretty sure no one's ever used that term to describe me around here. Double the appreciation, in fact, for your concern about my health. Nothing's too tight, everything feels just fine so I'm not feeling any strains at all. Assuming you're being serious though, I can assure that what I offered above regarding the performance was no stretch at all. IMO, all that is required to recognize at least some of those attributes is an open mind and a bit more patience to see things with a bit more subtlety than a sledgehammer. But remember, I did volunteer that I'm not an acting critic, so vive la difference I guess!!!

Oh, and as for Ms. Lien's knowledge of her departure, well there you go. As I said, and which you seem to have just ignored, as far as I'm aware the decision for her not to be renewed was not made until sometime after the end of the 3rd season, which ended with Scorpion Part I. Kim wasn't put on death's door to be miraculously revived in the Season 4 opener. The purpose of the scenario was for him to actually die as he was the first choice for elimination. While, I wouldn't exactly describe People as a glam mag, it was his appearance there that apparently influenced the show runner's to decide otherwise. I appreciate that you have the psychic abilities to know what Lien was thinking at the time, well we all want to better ourselves I suppose. While I know a damn sight more about her than you do, I don't have any idea what her perception of the future was at the end of Season 3. To suggest that she knew she had been written into a corner seems like a stretch of your own. There were 3 episodes in which she was prominently featured in, if not the actual feature actor, during a bit over the last half of that season, the final two representing a quarter of the final 8 episodes. Now one can make the case that those last two (Darkling and Before and After) could represent a foreshadowing of her departure and then a valedictory story that gave viewers a glimpse, while ultimately illusory, of what Kes could have developed into. Even more compelling for speculation perhaps is that in the 3 episodes before Scorpion, she was virtually nowhere to be seen, even to the extent of being blocked out of clear view in the crew background shots during Displaced.

It is interesting to speculate, but ultimately, from what we seem to pretty reliably know now, from different sources, including the fact that Wang's workplace attitude was often pretty sketchy, the first scenario is what is commonly accepted. By the way, the actor's name is spelled Lien, only 4 letters and not that hard to get right, unless that's part of some schtick of yours.

Lein probably knew she was out the door. The decision might not have been formally made but I'd say she knew she was gone when Wang made that magazine. There's was nothing to do be done with that character anyway and Beltran said she was hardly much more than a glorified extra. Lien was a good actress but she got the short straw with a character that was designed for the pilot basically and became the odd one out after that.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The need to "sex up the show" was one I never really understood. I mean, I thought that was the damn point of VOY, with its focus on women. As it was, the simply gorgeous Roxanne Dawson carried most of that responsibility and was - not infrequently - made to strip down to her undies, or stroll the holodeck in a bathing suit. And all that time, sweet, guileless, vulnerable Kes was wearing cute pixie outfits that complimented her, quite nicely.

Then, out of a clear blue sky, she's poured into a catsuit to play the part of the sexy nurse. But just as Roxanne's beauty was compromised by that rubber head, Jennifer's was by that ridiculous wig. I don't know what hair was used for it, but it moved like those stiff, short wigs as worn in court by advocates and judges in England. How can STAR TREK screw up something so easily presentable as feminine beauty? Well, apparently, somebody on the show finally noticed this and brought on a woman with great hair and big implants, whilst erasing their prior missteps. They even made Kate strip down for one episode and it's like ... but she's the mum! Who are you doing this for?

If Jennifer Lien was not getting in trouble with the show for using recreational drugs, then that's wonderful news and I'm glad for it. I was just under that impression, because of her reported erratic behaviour, over the years, especially of late. It's so hard to believe that who she is now and who she was then are one in the same. But, as I understand it, her fanbase has always been sympathetic and loving towards her and that's got to be some great support, right there. All medication has side-effects and I don't really blame her for desperately wanting to avoid it. Sometimes the cure is at least as bad as the illness. Unfortunately, the alternative of just letting her mental problems go unchecked didn't solve anything for her, either ...

 

[Mudd]

The drug rumor actually started about another actor. When Lien was fired, the rumor sort of spilled over to her.

Oversimplified.

Lien was fired because those in charge wanted to "sex up" the show with a woman in a catsuit.

Nope.