Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Tuvix is the Kobayashi Maru of the Delta Quadrant.

Good way of putting it though I was personally never conflicted over the dilemma. There could be an element of "duh, of course they will be separated it's tv" at work there though.

And I don't think she would have let Lessing die. She would have risked herself to save him from the beastie at the last moment and there would have been a Trek speech about what humanity stands for.

Think about this.

Imagine I grab hold of your hand and drag the both of us in front of an oncoming truck that couldn't possibly stop in time without killing us. But it's all right if you die only so long as I died or almost died trying to save you come the last second after I stop holding you in place to get squashed? How heroic is it for me to simply stop holding your hand?

Do I deserve a parade?

This reminds me of a quote from Happy Days...

Fonzie "Hey kid, I think I know your brother."

Kid "Yeah, really?"

Fonzie "In fact, I saved his life."

Kid "Really? How'd you do that?"

Fonzie "I stopped hitting him."

I didn't say she was "heroic". I don't think she would deserve a parade if she had to jump between Lessing and the Beastie when she was responsible for him being there in the first place. That there would be a Star Trek speech about what humanity stands for would be Janeway's mea culpa moment in that episode.

"I lost sight of what we're out here for Chakotay.. and I have to live with that." No not a real quote but sounds like something Janeway would say.

You're an irresponsible asshole for dragging me in front of that truck Guy Gardener, and quite possibly a mean and vengeful person too. How many trucks did I murder and consume to make you think I deserved that?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Letting that headcase (this week she was a super headcase, usually: not so much.) keep her job was a 40 trombone parade.

She was not in a good place, and should have at least gotten a medical certificate before being allowed to resume duties.

When Equinox, ducked into that planet with the nasty atmosphere and Voyager followed in hot pursuit, which ripped Voyager a new one, I was aghast at how deeply she was ahabbing it. Janeway had three choices. Fire off a dozen torpedoes, which cannot miss at that range, until Ransom surrenders or dies, wait in orbit until Ransom runs out of food, power and water, which given the shit kicking Equinox had taken couldn't be more than a few hours, even after Janeway spent a day or two fixing Equinox up to spec, or you do what janeway did, cripple her own ship for no tactical gain what so ever because hot pursuit into a starship blender 'feels' good.

Janeway was emotionally compromised because Ransom betrayed her faith in the uniform.

Regulation 619: The commanding officer must relieve themselves of command if their current mission leaves them emotionally compromised and unable to make rational decisions

 

[sonak]

Some quotes from the real argument, with the parts that were in particular ignored highlighted.

For instance relieving Chakotay in the Equinox two-parter was not tyrannical, not even extreme, because Chakotay had just helped stop a hot pursuit of a Federation vessel actively engaged in criminal activity.

As everyone knows, Chakotay's interference prevented us from knowing what Janeway would have done a few seconds later. But this simple fact is commonly ignored. But let us hypothesize that Janeway, whether intentionally or by misjudgment, had actually let Lessing die.

I reject your argument from depravity that equates Lessing's imaginary death with an injustice. Lessing murdered people, of an unusual and technologically primitive sort, it is true. But he was still a murderer. It takes barefaced gall to whine about Janeway breaking rules in the purely hypothetical case of Lessing's death, while blandly pretending that she didn't also break rules in allowing Lessing his freedom.

Lessing got away with murder because Janeway was a tyrant? She was too soft on him. Letting him off just because he was following Ransom's orders was highly objectionable. He was even worse than the Maquis.

As for the assumption that Lessing was tortured, Janeway didn't personally threaten or harm him. She merely left him outside Voyager's protection so that he would face the fellows of his victims. The notion that humans are so privileged that ugly primitives have no right to exercise justice on them, even upon murderers, is absurd. And it may be a science fiction story, but that way of thinking still smacks of something really ugly.

It is neither law nor justice nor simple common decency to require that Lessing face only human justice for his murders. It is also a dishonorable way of assuming the conclusion, that Janeway did something tyrannical. That kind of fallacious argument is absurd but we still have to take it seriously in a way. To say something so foolish shows that there is some prejudice clouding the mind.

I'm "prejudiced" and "dishonorable" because I disagree with your argument. I think that says more about you than about me.


I think it's interesting that you're defending Janeway in an instance when even the show isn't defending her. We as viewers are clearly meant to be with Chakotay and shocked by her actions, as she's clearly being driven by rage and self-righteousness at that point and not reason. She locks up her XO for preventing a murder and threatens to lock Tuvok up for daring to disagree with her. At the end of the episode, she even admits that she went too far and that Chakotay might have been justified had he attempted to relieve her.

I wonder what she'd have to do to appear like a tyrant to you. Clearly, deliberately allowing unarmed prisoners in one's custody to be murdered is not a big deal to you.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Picard always stated that he was wrong and that the God of the Edo, by federation law was allowed and indeed expected and congratulated to execute Wesley in TNG Justice. His arument to the contrary was "You are right, now go fuck yourself."

But then if one says that Janeway should have fed the equinox 5 to the beasties for dinner, then she should have handed Tom over in 30 days, and she should have handed Tuvok over in Prime factors and they all should have gone to a concentration camp in Counterpoint for traffiking.

Somehow icheb figured out that Janeway taught him to respect the laws of other cultures, which is why he volunteered for execution after being caught tresspassing in some dick head aliens back yard, after the ship became threatened by said dickhead in Q2.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Starship Captains are all tyrants.

It's their job to make the final decision. That's okay when they always choose correctly, not so "ok" when they choose incorrectly.

37's

JANEWAY: Evansville has offered to let any of our crew stay.
CHAKOTAY: What will you do about that?
JANEWAY: Maybe this is one of those decisions that the captain has to make for the entire ship.
CHAKOTAY: You may have a problem if a lot of people want to stay.
JANEWAY: I know that, but at the same time I can't take a vote every time there's a major decision to be made. And yet, we're a long way from Starfleet, and a lot of the rules and regulations I've learnt to uphold seem distant as well. Am I the only one who's so intent on getting home? Is it just me? Am I leading the crew on a forlorn mission with no real hope of success?

The problem with being the King... or Queen of the starship... with great power comes great responsibility...

Sacred Ground

Magistrate [on viewscreen]: Well, you've certainly done your research, Captain. I'm familiar with the story. I heard it as a child.
JANEWAY: It suggests that there's still a chance for Kes.
Magistrate [on viewscreen]: You're talking about a very specific case. Nevad was able to claim responsibility for the prince as a father and as a king. That's why the spirits were willing to listen to him.
JANEWAY: The Captain of a starship is fully responsible for every member of her crew.
Magistrate [on viewscreen]: So she is.
JANEWAY: And on that basis, I'd like to go through the ritual myself.

Great responsibilty to individual crewmen and to the ship itself. To protect them from unspeakable risks... even if it means...

JANEWAY 2: Hello. I'm Captain Kathryn Janeway. Welcome to the Bridge.
(DESTRUCT SEQUENCE ENGAGED Time Remaining 2, 1
KaBOOM!)

Great risks... even if it means going against what your valued crewmen advise...

Scorpion I

CHAKOTAY: I didn't want the others to hear this, but I think what you're proposing is too great a risk.
JANEWAY: How so?
CHAKOTAY: There's a story I heard as a child, a parable, and I never forgot it. A scorpion was walking along the bank of a river, wondering how to get to the other side Suddenly he saw a fox...

But the reason why crews tend to follow "tyrants" is that they usually get results. They usually are open to reinterpretation of the data...

Scorpion II

CHAKOTAY: I was linked to a Collective once, remember? I had a neuro-transceiver embedded in my spine. I know who we're dealing with. We've got to get rid of that last Borg and take our chances alone.
JANEWAY: It won't work. This isn't working, either. There are two wars going on. The one out there, and the one in here, and we're losing both of them.
CHAKOTAY: It will be your undoing.
JANEWAY: What?
CHAKOTAY: Our conflicted nature. Our individuality. Seven of Nine said that we lack the cohesion of a Collective mind, that one day it would divide us and destroy us, and here we are, proving her point.

But heavy hangs the head that wears the crown...

Night

CHAKOTAY: We were faced with a difficult choice. We had the means to get home but using it would've put an innocent people at risk, so we decided to stay.
JANEWAY: No, no, no. I decided to stay. I made that choice for everyone.
CHAKOTAY: We're alive and well, and we've gathered enough data about this quadrant to keep Starfleet scientists busy for decades. Our mission's been a success.
JANEWAY: The very same words I've been telling myself for the past four years. But then we hit this void and I started to realize how empty those words sound.
CHAKOTAY: Kathryn.
JANEWAY: I made an error in judgment, Chakotay. It was short-sighted and it was selfish, and now all of us are paying for my mistake.

But even tyrants need their crew to help pull them back even when they can't do it themselves...

CHAKOTAY: You've known her longer than anyone. Have you ever seen her like this?
TUVOK: Only once. It was during her first year as a Commander on the USS Billings. She sent an away team to survey a volcanic moon. Their shuttle was damaged by a magma eruption and three crew members were severely injured. The next day she returned to the moon, alone, to complete the survey. She wanted the crew to know that their suffering had not been in vain. She could have been killed.
CHAKOTAY: Seeking redemption.
TUVOK: Precisely. Captain Janeway's methods are unorthodox. It is her strength as a leader but, unfortunately, it is also her greatest weakness.
CHAKOTAY: Stubborn as a Klingon.
TUVOK: To put it mildly.

And yes... she does make mistakes. I don't believe she planned to kill the man who helped steal the shield generator from her crew, leaving the Voayger crew who had once saved HIS ship, to die at the hands of aliens revenging themselves upon any starfleet crew for the atrocites the Equinox crew perpetuated upon their species. I believed her when she said...

Equinox II

CHAKOTAY: He's a loyal officer. He's not going to betray his Captain. Put up the shields!
JANEWAY: He'll break.
CHAKOTAY: Captain!
JANEWAY: As you were.
COMPUTER: Level nine authorisation required.
CHAKOTAY: Damn it, Kathryn!
JANEWAY: You're panicking. He's going to talk.
[Bridge] TUVOK: Captain, a fissure is opening in that section.
JANEWAY [OC]: Understood.

The fissure was opening, the aliens were about to come through, and Janeway was sure Lessing would give up his Captain to save his own life. But Chakotay, a loyal officer, who would give UP his own life for Kathryn's KNEW different. He knew Lessing would not break, and that he would die, and Voyager would not only be in the same boat but potentially worse off... because once Janeway realized she killed the man, her guilt would take over and make her a less effective Captain.

JANEWAY: Will you look at that. All these years, all these battles, this thing's never fallen down before.
CHAKOTAY: Let's put it back up where it belongs.

Janeway was a tyrant, she was the Captain, it was her job to get them home and to keep them on the path of "starfleet righteousness" so that when they got home they could hold their heads high and reintergrate into their society.

The Void

JANEWAY: Target his shields and fire. Lock onto whatever belongs to us and transport it to the cargo bay.
SEVEN: I'm detecting large quantities of food on his supply deck.
PARIS: Maybe we should take it while we have the chance. JANEWAY: Is it ours?
SEVEN: No, but our own reserves are running out.
PARIS: Valen wouldn't hesitate to take it from us.
JANEWAY: No, he wouldn't. We've got what's ours. Reverse course.

She's a tyrant.. who's goal is to get as many of her people home as possible. You may not agree with her... you may not like her... you may think she's evil incarnate.

But if she was YOUR Captain... it means the odds are you WILL get home, and in one piece.

Endgame I

JANEWAY: I'm remembering a young Ensign who wanted to fly into a Borg-infested nebula, just to explore the remote possibility that we might find a way home.
KIM: If I remember correctly, you stopped me.
JANEWAY: We didn't know then what we know now.
KIM: Our technology may have advanced, but...
JANEWAY: I'm not talking about technology, I'm talking about people. People who weren't as lucky as you and me. You said you and the Doctor wanted to keep things in the family, but our family's not complete anymore, is it. I'm asking you to trust my judgment, Harry, one last time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVgPqb_e7g0&feature=related



[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVgPqb_e7g0&feature=related[/yt]

 

[sonak]

well, Janeway also made decisions for her crew that she had no business making. She stranded them in the DQ. If she really believed in helping the Ocampa, she could have let her crew go home, then stayed behind to set the explosives on the array.

The Maquis were drafted, if you remember. They didn't sign on to be members of her crew, so she should have shown greater flexibility in making decisions involving them, since unlike her Starfleet crew, they weren't even there even somewhat voluntarily.

From their perspective, Janeway stranded them and then drafted them.

 

[stj]

I'm "prejudiced" and "dishonorable" because I disagree with your argument. I think that says more about you than about me.

Once again you're wrong. You're dishonorable because you aren't satisfied with disagreeing with my argument, but because you ignore my argument, assume you are correct and insist that your whims are superior to my judgments. Prejudice is clouding your thinking. Unless of course you're just making crap up, just because it amuses you

I think it's interesting that you're defending Janeway in an instance when even the show isn't defending her. We as viewers are clearly meant to be with Chakotay and shocked by her actions, as she's clearly being driven by rage and self-righteousness at that point and not reason. She locks up her XO for preventing a murder and threatens to lock Tuvok up for daring to disagree with her. At the end of the episode, she even admits that she went too far and that Chakotay might have been justified had he attempted to relieve her.

I highlighted "murder" in this quote because that's the only kind of argument you've made. Consider the recent murders in Afghanistan. Suppose that guy who has reportedly confessed had some buddies who stole most of the armory's ammunition then went on to continue the murder spree, while the local villagers besieged the base where the soldier who confessed was held. You assume that the soldiers in the base have an obligation to keep killing the
attacking villagers, even while the soldier refuses to tell where the others plan to go to commit more murders, and that letting the guy face justice is the same thing as murder.

This is not just absurd, it is geniunely contemptible. That's why this episode is trash. Moore couldn't see where Chakotay did anything wrong, but that's the sort of thing that shows what a scumbag he is.

I wonder what she'd have to do to appear like a tyrant to you. Clearly, deliberately allowing unarmed prisoners in one's custody to be murdered is not a big deal to you.

Lessing being killed is not murder but justice. The assumption that aliens (aka foreigners) can't demand justice is repulsive.

 

[sonak]

I'm "prejudiced" and "dishonorable" because I disagree with your argument. I think that says more about you than about me.

Once again you're wrong. You're dishonorable because you aren't satisfied with disagreeing with my argument, but because you ignore my argument, assume you are correct and insist that your whims are superior to my judgments. Prejudice is clouding your thinking. Unless of course you're just making crap up, just because it amuses you

I think it's interesting that you're defending Janeway in an instance when even the show isn't defending her. We as viewers are clearly meant to be with Chakotay and shocked by her actions, as she's clearly being driven by rage and self-righteousness at that point and not reason. She locks up her XO for preventing a murder and threatens to lock Tuvok up for daring to disagree with her. At the end of the episode, she even admits that she went too far and that Chakotay might have been justified had he attempted to relieve her.

I highlighted "murder" in this quote because that's the only kind of argument you've made. Consider the recent murders in Afghanistan. Suppose that guy who has reportedly confessed had some buddies who stole most of the armory's ammunition then went on to continue the murder spree, while the local villagers besieged the base where the soldier who confessed was held. You assume that the soldiers in the base have an obligation to keep killing the
attacking villagers, even while the soldier refuses to tell where the others plan to go to commit more murders, and that letting the guy face justice is the same thing as murder.

This is not just absurd, it is geniunely contemptible. That's why this episode is trash. Moore couldn't see where Chakotay did anything wrong, but that's the sort of thing that shows what a scumbag he is.

I wonder what she'd have to do to appear like a tyrant to you. Clearly, deliberately allowing unarmed prisoners in one's custody to be murdered is not a big deal to you.

Lessing being killed is not murder but justice. The assumption that aliens (aka foreigners) can't demand justice is repulsive.

Ah, well if that's your argument it's just silly. First off, Lessing is a member of Starfleet and a citizen of the UFP. Even today, many countries won't extradite to places that have a death penalty.

Why should Janeway turn a citizen with legal rights over to be murdered without trial?

Further, as Guy Gardner pointed out, Janeway didn't turn over Tom in "thirty days," Tuvok in "prime factors," etc. And she violated local law in "Counterpoint."


To you, what she did in THOSE cases was repulsive, right?

You can't win the argument, because either you're being arbitrary and inconsistent or you're admitting that Janeway often made up the rules as she went along.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But Janeway made a deal.

She promised the beasties that she would feed them Ransom's "ship" which is a question of semantics that there was less than the full compliment on board when they went to chow down.

ANKARI: They say they want the humans to die.
TUVOK: A difficult place to start a negotiation.
JANEWAY: Will they understand me?
ANKARI: Yes.
JANEWAY: We didn't do this to you. We're trying to stop the humans who did.
ANKARI: They don't believe you would harm your own kind.
JANEWAY: We have rules for behaviour. The Equinox has broken those rules by killing your species. It's our duty to stop them.
ANKARI: Give us the Equinox. Give us the Equinox! They insist on destroying the ones who are responsible.
TUVOK: We will punish them according to our own rules. They will be imprisoned. They will lose their freedom.
JANEWAY: All right! If you stop your attacks, I'll deliver the Equinox to you!.
TUVOK: Captain.
JANEWAY: I know what I'm doing, Tuvok.
TUVOK: These beings would destroy Captain Ransom and his crew.
JANEWAY: What's their answer?
TUVOK: Your behaviour is irrational. We could find another solution.
JANEWAY: I've already confined my first Officer to quarters. Would you like to join him? Well?
ANKARI: They agree,

So really, she was either lying because her word is worth shit, or she had every intention of handing over the crew of the Equinox, and he situation just got out of control, afterwhich the beasties lost count and let it slide...

I've made the argument before that Noah Lessing was already dead when she tied him to that chair and tired to live up to her promises to the beasties to kill him. It didn't matter what he felt or what Noah had to live through before she killed him, because after she killed him, which she was going to do, soon and eventually, because her word isn't shit, he would be dead, and all his trauma would be moot.

So really?

How do you torture a corpse?

(Please. No instructional videos from Youtube. Thank you.)

 

[Captain_Nick]

The Captain is the boss. That is all.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Rudy Ransom.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Mistress Janeway, a tyrant,hmm? More important, how good does it hurt, though?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Mistress Janeway, a tyrant,hmm? More important, how good does it hurt, though?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Two men have been tied to chairs and tortured by a sexy woman on Voyager.

Janeway was one of those women.

 

[lurok]

EMH: As chief medical officer I have the authority to relieve you of your command.
JANEWAY: You're not going to do that.
EMH: If, in my medical opinion, your judgment has been impaired, I can. And I will.
JANEWAY: Try it and I'll shut down your programme.
EMH: That threat in itself is evidence of your unstable condition.
JANEWAY: I am sorry, Doctor. I've been operating on instinct for so long I did not think before I spoke. I have no intention of deactivating you. But I won't stay in this mess hall.
EMH: Is that final?
JANEWAY: Final.
EMH: Then you leave me no choice. Captain Kathryn Janeway, under Starfleet medical regulation one twenty one, section A, I, the Chief Medical officer, do hereby relieve you of your active command, effective immediately. Have a seat.
JANEWAY: How do you plan to implement this protocol, Doctor? Mister Tuvok doesn't have a security team, both the brigs have been destroyed, and with the internal force fields offline you'll have a hell of a time keeping me confined. You'd better grab a phaser, because before I give up command you'll have to shoot me.
EMH: You realize this incident will be noted in my official logs. By refusing my orders you risk a general court-martial.
JANEWAY: Compared to what I've been through the past few months, a court-martial would be a small price to pay. If we make it back home I'll be happy to face the music.

Not quite on par with Kirk's feigned outburst at Spock in Enterprise Incident, but close.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Two men have been tied to chairs and tortured by a sexy women on Voyager.

Janeway was one of those women.

I'm expecting the Law and Order: Starfleet CMJ theme to start now.

 

[AuntKate]

well, Janeway also made decisions for her crew that she had no business making. She stranded them in the DQ. If she really believed in helping the Ocampa, she could have let her crew go home, then stayed behind to set the explosives on the array.

The Maquis were drafted, if you remember. They didn't sign on to be members of her crew, so she should have shown greater flexibility in making decisions involving them, since unlike her Starfleet crew, they weren't even there even somewhat voluntarily.

From their perspective, Janeway stranded them and then drafted them.

Actually, it was the Caretaker that stranded them, and many others before them (like the Equinox). Janeway didn't have to offer them help. She could have left them high and dry, but she didn't.

We can't assume that their attempt to use the Caretaker's array would have been successful or that the Kazon would have given them enough time to figure out how to do it.

Once the captains decided to cooperate, Chakotay committed the Maquis to Voyager when he crashed their ship into the Kazon ship.

I guess it's just a matter of perspective.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kathryn was legally obligated to let the Ocampa suck it.

Kathryn was legally obligated to let the Kazon loot and plunder Ocampa and Caretakers Array.

The Kazon conquered Ocampa a generation earlier, the Ocmapa. even in hiding, were slaves who couldn't look after themselves, and Caretaker was a transient serial rapist with no claims to local space who's property became free salvage to the first way farer who planted a flag on that array, after he had died.

These were strictly internal matters Sraefleet had no business interfering with, because it dramatically altered the balance of power in the Quadrant, and it is Starfleets modus operandi not to be responsible for bullshit that's going to snowball, I mean bullshitball.

From the Pilot.
JANEWAY: Stand by.
CARETAKER: The self-destruct programme has been damaged. Now this installation will not be destroyed. But it must be. The Kazon must not be allowed to gain control of it. They will annihilate the Ocampa.
(The Caretaker shrinks into a hand-sized rock. Janeway picks it up.) TUVOK: Shall I activate the programme to get us back?
JANEWAY: And what happens to the Ocampa after we're gone?
TUVOK: Captain, any action we take to protect the Ocampa would affect the balance of power in this system. The Prime Directive would seem to apply.
JANEWAY: Would it? We never asked to be involved, Tuvok, but we are. We are.

Caretaker could have blown up the array at any point over the last 1000 years but he was a pussy. He didn't want to blow his home up, till after he died because the old bastard thought it might hurt. Wussy, pussy wussy. He relied on an alarm clock to do the job post mortem. Think of all the times an alarm clock fucked you over and you were late for work or school. He was an idiot. If Caretaker had just accepted suicide as a good call, the Ocampa would have been fine till their food, water and power ran out and they starved to death.

Actually.

caretaker didn't have to be on the array when it blew up.

he can fly through space (when he's healthy) or he could have gone and to begin dying on Ocampa weeks earlier after blowing up the array, and not shortened his life span a lick, even if his natural environment is a tangent dimension he could just slide into at will.

Caretaker was vain.

He loved his home too much to see it destroyed.

Tuvok knew how to send them home, but it would take a couple hours. Hours they didn't have because, there might have been thousands more Kazon ships on their way... But there wasn't. Kathryn's paranoia inflated the potency of the villain at hand because she assumed that she was dealing with Romulans, not Pakled.

Tuvok said that it was a Prime Directive concern, and Janewy said "fuck it"

The Pilot is black and white.

Janeway is a Villain.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Given the condition of the ship and crew on arrival, I wouldn't trust the array all that much to send me back in one piece to the AQ.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Compared to a 70 year journey through what appears to at least half of it being Borg, Romulan and Klingon Space?

Possibly dying instantly, or possibly dying in 69 years, 11 months and 20 days at the hands of a Romulan Disrupter?

Hard choice.